More crampon talk...

This from a forum I contribute to I thought worth repeating.  Taken in the right context it adds to the crampon steel conversation so I pasted it in here.

"Easy to get side tracked on the real issues here, which is failures in design and durability, with comments thrown at you like, "it is your soft or large boot, your lack of skill, your excess body weight, your poor technique" or now even "the rock is too hard".   My take is you are rolling over like a puppy if you actually believe any of that nonsense as a reason for your crampon to fail.


This was one attempted justification given for the lack of durability in SS.
"I've never encountered anything as abrasive as Chamonix alpine granite"

My answer:

Ya, now about that Chamonix granite? I bought a new pair of Dartwins while in Chamonix. I used them on every mixed climb I did there last winter but the two laps mentioned on the Cosmic with SS. The climbing amounted to several 1000' feet including, you guessed it, two additional laps on the Cosmic.

Dartwins below are never sharpened and left untouched since I got home in April. Judge for yourself how much life is still in these forged, chromoly front points. For me at least, another full winter season (2+ months) in Chamonix again.  But not likely two additional winters.  I'll keep you posted.

No question Chamonix is hard on gear but I suspect it is because you get to climb mixed any given day if you chose, not that the rock is any harder or more abrasive than granite in Alaska or the Tetons for example. It is just easier to get to and get on with long routes.

If you keep track (and I obviously do) I also find it interesting that the companies based around Chamonix don't have recent issues breaking picks or the more recent issue of crampon failures.  I could have included these Dartwins in my "crampon metal" comments. I didn't because of several reasons. First, the design is totally different as is the surface area contacting the rock. But if you look closely and actually examine the surface area between the two crampon styles there is a stark difference on what is really available for material to prolong the life of your crampons. The last picture reminds me of a razor blade and an axe in profile. Which is why I didn't add the Dartwin to the original conversation.

In these photos are fairly new Dartwins and brand new Sabers

Crampon durability? Stainless or Chromoly?

Up front, I currently own and use crampons from Camp, Black Diamond, Petzl, and Grivel.  I still own Salewa and Chouinard crampons that I have pulled out a few times in the last decade or so and even older Chouinards and SMCs that I haven't used in this century.

The point is I have no loyalty to any crampon maker.  I just want them to fit my boots and then stay on the boots while I am climbing on them.  As you might imagine with crampons in my gear room that I used 30 years ago I look for reliability and at long term durability as well.

These days with the emphasis on mixed climbing (read rock climbing)  in crampons you can easily go through a set of crampon front points in a season or less, if you choose to participate.

So a crampon with an easily replaceable front point makes economical sense.  But I have yet to see a crampon with easily replaceable front points that I really like...for a number of reasons.

So if you like fixed front points, as I do, you'll likely look for crampons that are the most durable and just as important the most reliable.  The reason behind this particular blog and its information/opinions offered is simple, losing a crampon on route or having a crampon failure while in use can be serious.  Fatally serious. That reality bought me to the obvious...a closer look at the quality of the steel used and different manufacturing techniques.

OK lets talk steel?  But what does a guy writing a climbing blog know about steel?  In this case enough to make an educated comment from the quality and durability of steels and the manufacturing processes currently being used to make crampons.  As a professional I've designed and built literally hundreds of extremely high quality and very expensive small arms, small arm parts and custom knives from plate, bar stock and from forged, stainless and chromoly steels.  One requirement that each has is they must last generations of hard use, not just a season or two.

Call me an well educated consumer for climbing hard goods..  My background in the small arms industry  gives me some insight to recognise the differences between actual forged parts or parts cut from plate or bar stock, the heat treat, hardness and the differences in chromoly and stainless steel alloys.   It isn't difficult to apply that knowledge to climbing  gear at a basic level.  Several decades of ice climbing and the use of virtually every high performance crampon in that time frame lends me an idea or two that might not be obvious at first glance by a casual climber or one simply not "into" the gear.  This is a detailed gear commentary I think needs to be heard again in the climbing community.  As you will see I am a not the first one to have raised the issue of using chromoly and stainless in crampons

More on steels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel

http://www.asminternational.org/portal/site/www/SubjectGuideItem/?vgnextoid=e0b0b4d68558d210VgnVCM100000621e010aRCRD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel


*Some materials and finishing perspective that needs to be considered first*

Working with a bare metal finish is a challenge for anyone, including skilled craftsmen.  There is nothing to hide a flaw. Doesn't matter if it is a small arm or a crampon, bare metal is always tough to work with.  There is some obvious protective value to most metal finishes.  But most protective finishes, especially "black" finishes will hide some pretty glaring faults/flaws as well.  Faults you could never get by with on a bare metal finish like stainless.

Bottom line here?  BD is allowing you to easily see every flaw in their stainless.  Almost everyone else is using some type of paint finish to protect their chromoly and just as importantly...look good cosmetically.

On the sells room floor cosmetics are king.  In the real word cosmetics mean ZIP.  Nothing!  Function and durability mean everything.  That goes for crampons and small arms.   Who has complained they were shot with an ugly gun?   Does the mtn care about the color of your crampon?

It is easy to find flaws in metal work if you look hard enough.  Just easier to see them in bare metal, that is in  "the white". The photo below is is an example of four different bare metal, "in the white" finishes on stainless. 

Four finishes on chromoly steel that  was then final finished with Carbona Blue for cosmetics and a low level of base metal protection.

The issue of flaws, in finish work or how you produce a product, can easily be over come.  You just need to use a material that structural or cosmetic flaws won't have a negative effect in the market place.  Problems result when your base material can't live up to your design work, for the use intended and the product fails in use.  Or your marketing department gets carried away with unrealistic claims.

The choice of material is critical when you have complex shapes, as you do with modern crampons.
Flaws cutting and bending in the manufacturing process that have long been accepted with chromoly, and no ill effects, simply may not work with in the same process with stainless.  Durability for stainless alloys and the heat treat being used seems barely in the same ball game as time proven chromoly.

Petzl's handiwork in chromoly and a black painted finish

dbl click to get more details

Grivel's handiwork in chromoly and a black painted finish

 dbl click to get more details

My perspective on gear breakage

If you have climbed ice long you have likely seen gear break.  The gear that does break in our sport is commonly known these days, or should be.  It is true that crampons, tools and picks have broken in the past (for decades) from every brand.  Anyone that tells you the failure of current production gear is the fault of your climbing style, boot sole rigidity, or climbing ability is simply ignoring the real issue.  The real issue is more likely one or more of the following, poor quality materials, lack of quality control and or bad design work by the manufacture.

Sure you can still break things ice climbing, but trust me, you will have to work at it for any of the quality  gear available today..

I personally haven't broken any ice gear in the last decade.   But I am also very critical on my choices in gear and I visually inspect them often.

I have worn out 3 pairs of crampons.  An early pair of Chouinard rigids by over sharpening.  My mistake which I have not repeated.  The other two pair were Darts.  Worn out simply by using them on modern mixed (read mostly rock) and having to sharpen them enough to keep them working on ice.   Fair enough in all three cases.  All were chromoly and all were forged front points.  Totally different designs or course but that isn't relevant to this conversation.

So here is what I know and what is generally accepted common knowledge in the small arms (guns and knives) manufacturing industry.

High quality stainless steel alloys are "soft and sticky" in comparison to chromoly used for similar applications in both plate and forged form.  And no, before you ask, the "sticky" part isn't going to make a difference climbing rock.

Take any quality knife for example.  If you want a durable and sharp edge you don't use stainless, you use chromoly.  If you want inexpensive weather resistance,  say from salt exposure, stainless might be an option.  A table knife you want to toss in the dishwasher?  Perfect.  Stainless is one of the most common and least expensive steels.  Much of it recycled..  It is also the cosmetic winner and the lowest common denominator for actual performance every where else.   If you require a sharp edge that is durable, and long term weather resistance, you use chromoly.  Depending on the level of protection required one of several coating options for the base metal.

The edge and the durability required can be a crampon point, a knife edge the professional requires or a hammer that has to cycle a million rounds of ammo.

Bottom line...if you want it to last,  you use chromoly and if required, a protective coating.
I would have to be convinced otherwise that a chromoly crampon would need a protective coating past cosmetics.  I know from experience that even simple powder coating is beyond the end use requirements to protect the steel on a crampon.  The "normal* coatings we use in my industry are way beyond what will ever be required in climbing gear.  As a side note.  The one instance of a climbing manufacture using a *normal* industrial level coating that I know of ended in a complete disaster.  Simply because the manufacture had no idea of the down sides of the actual coating being used.  Down sides?  Lubricity and brittleness in a fastener. Their reason for the coating process?  Cosmetics!   

Forging?  Forging is expensive.  The basic idea is to align the molecules  in the metal to add strength and durability to your product.  You can forge stainless and chromoly.  Forging will add to the durability and service life of both stainless and chromoly alloys if done correctly (hot forged ) and with the addition of a  proper heat treat.

"Forging can produce a piece that is stronger than an equivalent cast or machined part. As the metal is shaped during the forging process, its internal grain deforms to follow the general shape of the part. As a result, the grain is continuous throughout the part, giving rise to a piece with improved strength characteristics.[3] Some metals may be forged cold, but iron and steel are almost always hot forged. Hot forging prevents the work hardening that would result from cold forging, which would increase the difficulty of performing secondary machining operations on the piece."

More here on forging:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging

The beginnings of a BD stainless crampon.

Cutting from plate?  It is a less expensive method of manufacture compared to forged.  Basically cookie cutting by some method from flat steel plate and then you cold bend and finally heat treat as required.  General observation....durability compared to a forged product...will be less.   Again,,general observation..price point in manufacturing is the objective here.  You can use both stainless or chromoly as a material in this process.  Either will cold form, both will crack if not done correctly prior to heat treat.  Flaws from the cutting or bending process, stress risers, become points of failure if the cycle rate of the design  isn't high enough. (see the detail pictures below)

Cutting or forging....two totally different methods of manufacture and two totally different price points for the manufacturer.   But may be not the consumer.  You may not get what you pay for. There are always choices in any manufacturing process.   The trick is to know what choices to make, what can be combined in the manufacturing process and  most importantly, why.

Everything I have stated is really basic info to anyone working metal.  Not all the details are there, and to be honest as a climber the details are trivial.  Gear either works as intended or it doesn't.  A simple Google search will give you more info than you will ever require on steels and manufacturing processes.

So what is the bottom line?  Who cares about stainless or chromoly, forged or cut from plate?

There are some easy comparison to make given enough time.   But there are other issues as well.  Does size matter?   It certainly does in raw materials and production costs.   How much the crampon covers on your boot sole and does it make a difference climbing? That I'll leave that up to your imagination.

A '80s vintage forged Chouinard/Salewa on the left with 6 down points. A plate cut stainless BD on the right with 6 down points for the *same size* boot sole.  It should be obvious which pattern offers the most traction on snow and ice.  How much is enough?

Below Chouinard/ Salewa Hnged,  hot forged, chromoly crampons.  Bought in 1979 and used all over the world on ice and mixed.  Notable..mixed climbing...the Chouinard/Beckey/Doody  route on Edith Cavell, Canadian Rockies.  And literally 1000s of feet of water ice and easy mixed.  I've never heard of a pair of these failing in any manner.  But no Internet for much of their life span either..  Weight 204g for one front half.

Chouinard /Salewa's front points after years of use.

Black Diamond Stainless Sabertooth. stainless, cut from plate and cold formed.  Known catastrophic failures with this crampon technology on complicated designs.  Total use on this pair?  Two trips up the Cosmic Arete, early March 2011.   Maybe 10% of what the Chouinard/Salewa Hinged above did on just the North face of Cavell.  Weight 142g for one front half (stripped w/no bail)

Current production BD Stainless Sabertooth Crampons after only a few hours of climbing on moderate mixed terrain.  Dbl click the photos for a close up view.

Two sides to every story.  And admittedly I only see a small part of even my side on this one.  I admire innovation and on first impression you might be able to make a case for stainless as a reasonal base material for crampon manufacture.  Misleading infomercials aside the manufacturing techniques and alloy chosen would have to be up to the task as well to reap the real benefits of stainless in a crampon.

To follow the next part of the discussion please view the BD product video linked below.

Upgrade to stainless: The benefits of Black Diamond stainless steel crampons. from Black Diamond Equipment on Vimeo.

Making a *direct comparison to the best chromoly technology* used in crampon manufacture here are my observations and comments to the BD the video.

BD claims these benefits (in bold print below) to their stainless in their video and my answrs to those claims.

More "green" manufacturing.  yes, better than adding a coating, check.

No rust. stainless will still rust, better than Chromoly for rust? Sure.                                                                   

Wears better in use.  Sadly not what I have found in use and not the consistant history of stainless.

Extremely hard.  Not even close to chromoly.

More durable.  Again not even close to chromoly. 

Stronger.  No, chromoly is generally stronger in use

Lighter. chromoly and stainless weigh the same..the same.

Of course you could argue the point with different variations of stainless and chromoly alloys and the terms, "extremely hard", "more durable" and "stronger".   Just my opinions, based on my own experience, that are expressed here.

Below is a production (not a sales sample) Sabertooth Pro failure from last winter. And not the only pair with similar stainless steel failures I documented in the 2010/2011 winter climbing season. BTW all of the failures I am aware of have been either in the the EU or Canada.

To be fair likely the biggest retailer in the USA has no problem with the durability of the BD stainless crampons. I was made privy to the BD returns at REI for 2010/11 and the % was extremely low. Returns of BD crampons at REI for any reason are well below anything to raise their corporate concerns.

Comments below are from the owner of the broken crampons pictured above:

"The boot is/was a Nepal Evo bought in 2010. Size 42.5. The crampons only really had 10-15 days on them (I originally posted 20 but I was being overly conservative). I do weigh in at 200lbs but am not aggressive with my kicks. The majority of the days climbing were on tame WI3 as a seconder with a few days leading. By no means am I an expert but I would not say that they were seriously abused in such a short time and with relatively low impact climbing. In total, there were three days walking up grotto falls. Three days at Chantilly, climbing no walking. 4 days at King Creek, only climbing and two days on THOS. Not a lot of mileage...

Hope that helps,

Blake"

FWIW  the Grivel G12s I'm climbing on in the picture below have been on much more modern mixed than a couple of laps on the Cosmic Arete and show virtually no significant wear on the front points.  They are still going strong with a second owner.

You don't have to be a materials engineer or a rocket scientist to see what is happening here.  Similar wear patterns on both sets of crampons.  Just a lot more wear in a short amount of time on the stainless version.  You have to be extremely naive to believe the marketing pitch of better manufacturing techniques and the use of a higher quality of material.  I was originally.  I have been aware of the issues in manufacturing and production on this subject for several climbing seasons.  But I hadn't had the time to field test the stainless long term to my satisfaction until now. 

Photos below are the micro flaws (stress risers)  in plate cut stainless crampons.  The most recent pair are coded *1069* (69th day of 2011) the oldest *0168*.  Given enough use/time, IMO,  these will eventually fail. See if you identify the manufacturing flaws in these photos.

The next three pictures are close ups of the front points.

And small cracks starting on the outside edge of two different frames that will likely end as a catastrophic failure if you continued using it.

The lesson here is to be sure you visually check ALL your gear at the time of purchase and prior to every use!

Petzl, Grivel and DMM have a choice and are still using chromoly.  Camp beat BD to market with a stainless crampon.   That is the Camp •"Sandvik Nanoflex® stainless steel for superior performance and durability."

Black Diamond has a very good marketing department.here in the US.    Claiming among other things "stainless is lighter than chromoly".   Which is of course is an incorrect statement.

Facts I do agree with?

Nice that Grivel has written them all down :)  When I first saw this info on Grivel's web site a few years ago I put much of it off to childish bickering between two companies fighting over market share.  After all didn't everyone want some pretty new crampons?  I certainly did!   But no doubt some truth to Grivel's published info.  Now?  I am more concerned about what I strap on to my own boots.  And I worry less about who originally pointed out the down sides of stainless.

http://www.grivel.com/company/inox_vs_nicromo

http://www.grivel.com/company/metalli/interview_emilio_ramous.pdf

If you bother with a search of this blog you will find a few positive commentaries on BD stainless crampons. Specifically the newest stainless Sabertooth and Serac crampons.  I like those model's overall weight and climbing on them even more so.  I still think the Sabertooth is one of the best all around crampon designs  we have seen to date.  But good design work will seldom overcome a bad choice in materials and poor manufacturing techniques if the tool is pushed to the extreme.  And crampons are always pushed to the limit.  

Mark Twight and Will Gadd have both, at one time or another commented  in print, on just how well the Sabertooth  (the previous chromoly version anyway) climbed.   

More on my thoughts of how well the Serac and Sabertooth designs climb.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/black-diamond-serac-crampon.html

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/02/these-freakn-pons.html

Fun to see BD sponsored, Colin Haley climbing on the Midi in the Sabertooth.

 

Colin">http://vimeo.com/23577174">Colin Haley in Chamonix

from Bjarne">http://vimeo.com/user5490470">Bjarne Salén on Vimeo.https://vimeo.com">Vimeo.>

Earlier that month I had soloed the same gully.  I made the decision not to use stainless there because I was concerned about reliability. It is not a difficult climb but not one I want to have a crampon failure on either, roped or unroped..

Stainless steel might be an upgrade for your kitchen appliances but it is not an upgrade when it comes to a sharp kitchen knife or ice climbing equipment.  There are simply too many trade offs to not question the use of  stainless in crampons.  

 It is all a matter of trust.  Spend your money wisely. 

 My money (and boots) are now on Chromoly. 

And a follow up..... that adds to this conversation

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011/08/more-crampon-talk.html

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2012/02/it-is-dead-horse-more-on-stainless.html

Vertical front point crampons?

I have a gear room wall full of crampons.  Several versions of each.   Black Diamond, Petzl and Grivel are all represented.

Until recently I have been a big fan of the Black Diamond horizontal crampons for most conditions.  Sabertooth to be exact.  But I have also used the Serac.  They both climb exceptionally well.   Positive blogs on both can be found here on Cold Thistle.   Big fan until they started breaking.  BD has yet to acknowledge they have a problem.  To the opposite in fact, they have publically denied any problems.   Despite continuing to quietly replace production crampons as they crack or break and are returned to BD.

                                

Since the breakage issue was made public on a Canadian blog in Feb of 2010 when horizonatals seemed required, I have been climbing in a heavier, but still outstanding, Grivel  G12s.   Chromoly is proven technology I trust.  Easier for me to simply change brands than to be required to physically check and then have to still worry about my crampon's reliability everytime out.  I do check my gear...and like the Sabertooth a lot.  This one seems an overly obvious failure just too easy to avoid.

With an exceptionally cold winter in Western NA and a mid winter trip to the Alps I ended up using vertical front point crampons more this winter than I normally would.  Given a choice I really don't like climbing a lot of hard, cold ice.  This winter I had little choice.  So I climbed in the BD Cyborg, the new Grivel G22 and my old stand by, the Dartwin.

None of the previous mentioned vertical front point 'pons are what I would consider "amazing".  Something about each I don't like and somethings about each I do like.

My first complaint is none of them fit well on my boots, the Spantik or Ultra very well.  Surprizing the G22 is the worst of the bunch.  BD Cyborg second "best".  Both need new front bails for my boots and my standards..  Easily done.  I use Petzl bails on both the other brand crampons.  How long is it going to take these guys to figure the bail thing out?    The Dartwin has a good front bail obviously.  But the back heel lever could be better on the Petzl.  The leverage is all wrong on the keeper strap.  And  the bottom of the heel piece shape (Grivel and Petzl) will collapse the Spantik sole if tighened very much.    So the Petzl heel lever I replace with a BD heel lever, which offers more surface area and a tight crampon.  Problems solved on the Dartwin  for the most part.

Of the three the Grivel has the best front points imo.  The Cyborgs 2nd there as well.  In comparison the Dartwin is the worst performance of the three.  But not by much.   Only the Cyborg is replaceable and hard to tell the difference in performance of the G22, Dartwin and the Cyborg.   But you can if the conditions are bad enough and the ice hard enough.    A few bucks to replace the fronts on a Cyborg.  The Dartwin and G22 you buy a new front crampon.  Expensive that and unnecessary by today's engineering standards.  The Dartwin wears better than the G22 simply because of front point surface volume.

The Cyborg will climb easy ground better than the G22 or the Dartwin. Try walking on smooth 30 degree water ice as an example.   The term ice skates will get a whole new definition there.   But what you pay for that kind of performance in additional weight.  Too much extra weight imo.  Cyborg is a dated design.   But then all three are really if you look at what is possible in crampons today.   Dartwin is a little better on easy ground than the G22 imo.  All three crampons could go back to the drawing board and easily eliminate their down sides with little effort.

Big advantage to the Grivel G22 though  on the out of box fit for the TLT5 Dyanafit ski mountaineering boots.  Almost like the G22 was purposely designed to fit this boot :)   Not perfect but it is a good out of the box fit.   You'll likely see a lot of that combo on technical ground next winter.  I'll certainly be using them.

weight listed per pair:

Petzl Dartwin 1/2 bot 30.5oz / 865g
Grivel G 22 w/full bot 900g
Black Diamond Stainless Cyborg full bot 39.4oz / 1116g
 

Dartwin has eight down points working for you on moderate ground.  The Grivel 22 just six!  The Cyborg ten.  No wonder the Cyborg is more secure on moderate ground!  Not everyone's choice but when all said, the fit and performance is good enough on the Dartwin.  Which makes the Dartwin my choice in vertical front point crampons. Although it is an expensive one if you are climbing a lot of mixed when compared to the M10, G14 or the Cyborg.
 
Strip a set of Cyborgs down and you have this:
 
Black Diamond Stainless Cyborg, mono, no bot, 28.6oz / 811g


No stainless Cyborg bodies broken yet that I have heard about.  And Cyborgs get used a lot around the world.   Something to be said for a dual point that can be converted to a mono and easily replacable, CHEAP to replace, front points.  I won't be getting rid of my Cyborgs anytime soon.


BB and Grivel versions come with botts.  The Petzl version you have to buy the heel piece.  Still nothing up front on the Dartwin.

                                                     left to right:  Cyborg, Dartwin and G22

There is much more to a crampon than the front points.  I start with relaibility and how the crampons fit my boots and move on from there.  For me once trust in the design is established,  fit is the most important issue for picking the right crampon.

For those that wonder why I worry so much about crampons fit?

UIAGM Guide Dylan Taylor has a great blog post about climbing the Ginat that is worth reading.

http://www.tayloralpine.com/tayloralpine-blog/2011/4/10/les-droites-north-face-la-ginat-route.html

"We crossed the Argentiere and simu-climbed most of the route in about four pitches. I found another screw and one broken black diamond crampon stuck in the snow midway up the first pitch. Hmmm..."

I asked Dylan what kind of crampon he found and its condition from the Ginat, "I am pretty sure the crampon I saw at the base of the route was a newer BD cyborg or something Ike that. It was definetly the shiny new stainless steel design, and I think it had modular vertical front points, and orange antibot plates. Did you drop a crampon? Hope not! The heel bale was missing completely...Cheers, Dylan"

I've found single crampons in the middle of the Eiger and on other big north faces in NA and Europe.  Dropped a crampon myself mid pitch.    You have to wonder what the stories are behind any lost crampon,  but can't imagine any of them being pretty.

 

Vertical or horizontal front point?

This winter's Ice climbing season started early. Nov. in the Ghost River area of Alberta in fact for me.

                                                                   The Ghost

 The super cold temps that would later invade Canada and Montana had yet to arrive.   Some where you generally have to pay the price for good early season climbing.  For me that was climbing on harder ice than I am generally use to for the majority of the season.  By Jan and -30C temps in Canada I was pretty much worn down and worn out with hard water ice.

In a typical winter I start climbing water ice in Canada after Christmas and continue through mid April.

This winter I had 4 trips north in before Christmas.

The 5th trip was to the Ice Fields Parkway at the first of the year.  Cold by any standard.  I took dbl boots and for once a pair of BD Cyborgs to easy the pain of pounding toes on hard ice.  It made a difference.

Generally I like climbing in horizontal front point crampons.  They offer marginally more support and resist shearing the front points in wet, soft ice.  I have found most of the cruxes in my own climbing to be sun rotted  vertical ice or just as likely what ice that is there sublimated or just out right melting off the wall.   Places that a set of single vertical front points just don't "cut" it for me.  I hate having my feet pop off on anything including steep or not so steep ice because of the specific tools I have decide to use.

Some huge advantages of a mono point on mixed but even there I will generally try to get away with a set of dual horizontal fronts unless I know it will be a mostly a rock climb with boots and tools required.  Not dry tooling per say but certainly "modern mixed".

I know for my size a set of dual horizontal fronts offer more support and that I am less likely to pop my feet.  Proven to my self over and over again.

But then there is hard ice....not the typical couple of days of hard freeze ice but weeks on end at -20 or less.  The stuff that breaks tools, crampons and dinner plates big enough to break helmets.  Cold...like an animal wanting to kill you.  Polar Circus was a good example in Jan.  Dbl boots and a set of vertical front pointed Cyborgs made it less effort, thankfully.

                                                   The Ice Field Parkway



Ha!  Funny now in retrospect as I have never been as cold as I was climbing in Chamonix this winter.  Shivering to the bone cold, on route.  Temps only -20C or so and with a good wind.  Likely most of it was me being less than fit and not acclimatised.  But no matter, I as cold. (reoccurring theme about that trip)

The cold I can deal with..even while bitching about it.  The ice was another matter all together.  The first bit of gully ice I found shattered on impact and was tough even to get enough purchase for a good hook let alone a solid stick.  That bit of ice was mid route on what is generally considered a "rock" route so I blew it off  to the 4 mm pick and my inabilities.  Boy was I mistaken.

The next bit of ice I encountered was at least half gravel and sand, frozen into the back of a corner.  Proper gully ice that.  Thankfully there were enough rocks sticking out of the ice that front points weren't an issue.  Getting a decent stick with my tools was however.  Nomics without pick weights or hammers this time.  My normal choice for Cascade or Rockies mixed and the seemingly hands down preference in the Alps I am bluntly told.  Nomics, Cascade picks and no weights.  Ya, well that choice didn't work so well for me.  And a set of sharp, vertical crampon points is likely the only thing that will consistently penetrate alpine winter ice, aka, Chamonix asphalt.  The ice may look great for climbing but the difference between Neve and old winter water ice is genuine and huge.

No more worrying about shearing a set of dual vertical front points or a mono for that matter through soft ice.  The ice was hard enough to support even my lard ass on a mono in every alpine gully I climbed and half the water falls I did this winter.

So while I am still a big fan of horizontal fronts I am also a huge fan of Monos when I can get away with it and even a bigger fan of dual verts.  And when it is cold...really cold.....I want VERTS.

                                                                       Chamonix

There you go...another change of mind on my part for gear...it can happen on occasion ;-)

Broken Black Diamond Crampons..the soft shoe shuffle?

June 1 2011

I have rewritten this blog to make it more current and in my opinion more accurate from the details I have been able to gather from the climbing community in the last 4 months.    Black Diamond has offered no new public information since the third pair of broken stainless crampons became public knowledge in mid Feb of 2011.


Since then I have been made aware of several more pairs of  cracked or broken crampons by their owners.  Crampons that the owners only identified because of  Rafal's original blog post on the subject. 


Until recently I have been a big fan of the Black Diamond horizontal crampons for most conditions. Sabertooth to be exact. But I have also used the Serac. They both climb exceptionally well. Big fan until they started breaking. BD has yet to acknowledge they have a problem. To the opposite in fact, they have publically denied any problems. Despite continuing to quietly replace PRODUCTION crampons as they crack or break and are returned to BD.

I will no longer climb in mine.

I have personally verified early versions of both Sabertooth and Serac Pro and Clip models failing.  All have had a similar failure and position on the front of the crampon.  Thankfully the only broken crampons I have seen are the earlier versions before BD added material to the failure area.   Those same crampons can still be found on Black Diamond's  dealer's shelves.

I first noticed that added material and design change in the early fall of  2010.

snip from a comment by Bill Belcourt of Black Diamond on Gravsport:

"these changes would improve the life of the crampon in the failure mode that Rafal saw"

The original comment here:

http://www.gravsports-ice.com/icethreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8972&page=4

The heads up and photos courtesy of Rafal.  More here:
http://rafalandronowski.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/broke-my-crampons/

In email conversations with the owner of these Sabertooth Pros said they were used only with a Nepal Evo.  The Evo is a pretty rigid boot by today's standards.  I do not believe these crampons, which were sold at retail and not prototypes, were abused in any way.

BD disagrees:

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1004766/1

1st gen Sabertooth is on the right in the picture above.  2nd gen version is on the left. At the area of the break BD went from approx. .53" to .70". across the flat or a 38% increase.    The cross bar between front points gained 24% in a similar fashion, . 50" to .62"

And from our Friends in Finland!

From the top of Europe a great blog and an approprieate picture for the current and reaccuring topic of crampons.

Thanks Toby!

Gotta watch that crampon fit.  Nepal Evos and Black Diamond Cyborgs should be good to go though.  That one might well be operator error.  Sorry Toni...as I was cheering for you!    But I know the head of Black Diamond's hard goods program uses the same set up and hasn't lost a crampon yet.

More here:

http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2011/01/january-ice-climbing-and-hiking.html


Black Diamond field testing the same boot/crampon combo on Utah ice last winter.

More on crampons, this time from Joe Palma

Joe Palma?   The early Polar Circus topo was Joe's work.   He has been around.

Ya just gotta love a guy who is well on the way to winning the gear war by attrition :)

"Dane,
I'm going to try to sit down with all my boots/crampons this weekend, fit them stock and modified and get you some photos, if you're interested. In terms of selection I believe I have:
Boots:
Salomon Super Mountain 9 Guides (uninsulated, damn...loved the fit on these, perfect, just weigh a ton)
Scarpa Freney (blue first gen)
Kayland Super Ice
LS Nepal EVO GTX
LS Batura (first gen)
LS Trango Prime
Scarpa Phantom Guides (latest gen)

Crampons:

Dartwins (sidelock)
G14s (crampomatic)
G20 (both 2009/2010 and 2010/2011 versions, additional small frontpoint on the 2010/2011 version)
Air Tech (newmatic)
Rambo 4
Rambocomps
Old Sabretooth Pro
SS Sabretooth Pro
Finding the G20s and SS Sabretooths are the go-to choices on the Primes
and Phantom Guides
Joe"

"Hey Dane,


Attaching a few pictures from some setups. the possible permutations would take days to run through so I haven't got a complete set. My observation is that the Petzl front bale is the most likely to fit other manufacturers crampons,

BD's/Grivel's are generally too wide to swap to other frames. However, I'm not 100% happy with the fit of any combinations...was in the Daks this past weekend and was annoyed that I had a rattle in my Phantom Guide/Sabretooth combo (right boot only) that I was able to eliminate by cranking down the
tension on the heel bale. Didn't seem to impact performance at all, but I don't want to be wasting energy thinking about losing a crampon!

(my note) * I ended up bending Petzl bails to fit my Phantom Ultras with Sabertooths till I got a almost perfect fit.    The Ultra and Phantom 6000 likely have the hardest toe priles to fit currently.   The modified Sabers now fit my Guides as well.*  

(back to Joe)
End of the day, I'm running G20's (latest ones) and new Sabretooth crampons stock, interchangeably on both the Phantom Guides and Trango Primes. Just need to modify the length and adjust the heel level tension. Relatively happy with both setups, as long as I carefully adjust the heel bale tension.

I really would like to be able to use my Rambo 4s on either set of boots, but regardless what I do with it I can't get a bomber fit. The flat profile of the frame and rocker in my boots just don't play well together."


La Sportiva Prime with Stainless Sabertooth with a Black Diamond Bale on the lft and the Petzl bail on the right.

By all accounts the new Scarpa soles are difficult to fit. Stock Rambo IV and a Scarpa Guide.  Note the gap at the toe.

 toe gap.....on the Rambo/Guide combo

 Rambo/Guide combo with a Petzl front bail...better but not perfect

More from Joe on 2/07/2011

Made an interesting discovery regarding the Rambo 4. Happened in to Mountain Equipment Co-op, here in Toronto, last week and noticed that the pair of Rambo 4s they had on display appeared to have a much more pronounce rocker to them. Dropped in again on the weekend with my Phantom Guides, Trango Primes and original Rambo 4s in to take a closer look. Sure enough the frames are different, there's a visible dfference in rocker between the pair I had (purchased late 2009, original active anti-bots) and the new (all

black ABS antibots). Makes for a much better fit on both boots. MEC was kind enough to do a straight exchange for me, assuming that the flat frame on my pair must have been a defect. Climbed in 'em yesterday with the Trangos...man, they're fantastic for pure ice.