A 2nd look at ice screws....

I had a chance to climb on some ice this winter that was unique.  Was to me anyway. 

I had thought I had seen hard black ice previous.  Uncomfortable but workable.  But some of the stuff we got on in Chamonix was damn near bullet proof.   And I actually know what real "bullet proof " is by USDOJ standards.  This was IIIA no problem.  Ceramic plate hard.   Going for a solid III or IV rating hard.   Hard, cold and dry.  Some times as much rock and sand, as ice.

I had thought over time I pretty much figured out how to get a decent belay on ice quickly.   Typically takes only a few minutes and I'm done.  Nothing fancy mind you.  Two screws, two tools to the hilt.  Clove the screws on a good day, clip a tool out of the loop may be and were are off to the races.  Nothing fancy.  I can do fancy just don't chose to generally.

Only once have I failed to get an anchor...that in the upper bowl on Slipstream.  Even in the old days when we already knew the screws we were using wouldn't work in some ice we'd just keep climbing in a similar situation.  Never have I spent an hour trying to get a belay on ice...until this winter.

Matt  (high middle of pic) above tied off screws and  well deserved rock pro....finally.

Likely obvious but alpine ice isn't waterfall ice.  I spent an hr we could ill afford trying to get two decent screws into the belay from where this picture is taken.  You might reasonably ask why not rock gear there?  And it would be a reasonable question.  We had just climbed 250m of hard, (like rocks are hard) north facing ice with a foot or so of fresh snow on it and my patience was wearing thin.   I actually climbed over to the rock thinking I'd be able to get something in where the picture is, easily. ( I seldom can't in a minute or less on rock)   It was prefect granite for chrimney's sake!   By the time I realised rock gear wasn't going to be easy I was determined to grovel, dig or full on excavate to get ice..any ice.

What ice that I could/should have gotten a screw into normally I was coming up dry.  I'd get a bite, a couple of 1/4 turns to a start.  Then the ice turned to the consistency of rice and the screw failed to bite as the tip, plugged up with ice.  Over and over again.  Clean the tip and try, clean the tip and try.  Nothing in the tube.

Six holes.....yes I counted.  And many failed ice screw placements later I gave up (i gave up!?) ...tied the two shitty screws off , covered them with snow, reset my tools, tied them off and said "climb".  Surely not not all that thrilled with the screws or the time wasted.  We should have just started climbing together so I would/could have found better ice.  Bad, really bad, judgement call on my part in several ways.

I had covered the anchors because I knew my partner was not going to be pleased.  With the gear or with me.   Hell! I wasn't pleased and at this point was feeling like a total failure.  WTF happened here?  A couple of things.

The ice was really old and hard.  It was shallow.  I dinged 3 screws trying, I know.   But and here it comes....the screws were all new (as in brand new) BD Express screws.  I had decided to make a real effort to use the BDs in the alpine on this trip.  Lighter by a few grams, rack easier and all.......
Even if the BD's are a bit harder to place, which has been my experience over time,  it is only alpine ice.  How hard can it be?  "It aint going to ever matter."

Ya, that was a dumb answer.  And this was a "easy" climb.  Just the fact that the ice wasn't being cooperative made it, well, not so easy.

A number of things stood out to me on this particular climb.  New snow on the approach and the easy angled ice, the cold temps and the ice quality.  It was hard to get takers for a trip  back to that set of gullies ;)

What I did fine when I made it back the next week was...similar snow conditions.  And the same ice conditions.  Likely a tiny bit warmer but that would be only a guess and if so not by much.

But I brought a majority of Grivel Helix screws this time.  Fool me twice and all.  Amazingly enough...every screw was sunk to the hilt first try.  Nothing tied off and no time wasted on bad anchors.

To be fair.   I knew where I was going, where there was good/better ice on route and where to avoid another dry hole.   But still......if I didn't think there was a difference...a big difference..I wouldn't be writing about it.    With a little help my partner was able to climb "the obvious line" that wasn't all that obvious first time around or for the locals that were following us that day.

I have a full rack of the newest BD and Grivel screws and no horse in the race..   YMMV but that is my 2 cents from this experience.

Looking down from that same belay....great snow ledge anyway :) 
Sadly, no, the beautiful and warm sunshine  never touched the belay.

Ice Screw length?

Flow Reversal in typical conditions, early Winter 2008.

When the original Chouinard screws came out...you know 30 plus years ago,,,most every one had the rack full of 22 and 28cm screws and maybe a Snarg or tow.  A full rack then was 8 may be even 10 screws.

Kinda shocking really just how few screws we used BITD for some fairly steep climbing.  Considering it generally took two men and a boy to place  the screws of the day in cold ice.  

I don't mind giving an opinion (ya that is obvious) of what I wear or what I think on most things but the tools or crampons that  you choose are up to you.  Same with the other gear you use.  The idea here is info, comparisons and opinions.  Choices.  The length of screws I choose generally depends on the quality of ice.   Ice quality isn't something always easily known from the ground when sorting gear.  The links below offers some ice screw info that has been passed around in the community.  That info convinced me to change what I use for ice screw sizes a few years ago.  

This is not a blog post I would have ever thought to make but Runar asked so here ya go. 




My climbing rack includes BD Express and Grivel Helix screws in the 10cm through 16cm sizes.  Generally I like the 13s if given a choice and I have good ice.   I'll use a 22 or a 16 for V threads.  But prefer a 22.

That said a number of better climbers than I use only 16cm tubes and up for everything,

More here.

http://www.jjgeng.com/html/body_ice_screw.html

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=095232e4-4caf-49ec-8495-9c9e00a633da


More of Oscar on Flow Reversal in really fat conditions, late winter 2010.

Careful with those hangers!

A reader sent me this today. Thought it worth posting.


Photo from the new Outdoor Reasearch catalog sent to me by Pat Valade

Black Diamond Express Ice Screws?

Jeff Shapiro climbing hard, fully kitted in BD with a rack of Express screws

I have a couple of drafts started in the blog about eating my words on gear.  Hadn't finished any of them of course because it is really hard for me to convince ME, I am ever wrong :)  Weak, I know, but here is the first.

Few that don't know me can understand the time I have spent at my desk or at the work bench in the shop measuring, sharpening or just examining ice screws.  A couple of my climbing partners have seen me wind in dual screws at placements on climbs and wondered just how  much of a knuckle head I was going to be that day.  And if I could just get on with it!    If I am placing dual screws it is generally because I am scared but I can go with the gear testing story when pushed.

But, with all the playing around I at least *think* I know something about ice screws.

When you understand what makes the teeth bite and how much each screw weights and why there isn't much else to understand.   Simple pieces of gear really...well pretty simple anyway.

So you have to understand that I know Black Diamond has a better set of teeth than most anyone making screws.  And no question the Black Diamond Express screws will take a "set" faster than anything else I use. By taking a "set", what I mean by that is the screw will generally catch the threads with a a single full turn at the wrist and stick in the ice so you can now employ the hanger's crank knob.

True, the Black Diamond screw is faster than the Grivel Helix on the "set".

But in a perfect world you have several steps to placing an ice screw, the "set", the wind and finally the clip.

If we have a "set", then the wind and finally the clip to each screw placement then each step is equally important to me.  On difficult climbing how long it takes me to fully place a screw defines how many screws I will place.   I can decide to place screws in several ways.  The first is by the difficulty of the climbing.   I place screws often because I am likely to fall off at any given moment.   That is not how I like to climb on ice.  Umbilicals are my first line of defense so my preferred way is to place fewer screws.  It is an old habit I have from the days when screws were extremely hard to place.  None of the screws available now have that unenviable reputation. So the screws I do place better be bomber and take as little time as possible to get in.   Time is a factor because if the climbing is difficult and steep, endurance and strength is always in question.   I want to end the pitch strong enough to finish with a reserve.  I don't want to ever fall on ice.

So from my own observations I think that the BD Express is the first screw to "set".    If it only ended there the conversation would be over.  Next up is the wind.  So your screw is set and there is little fear of it launching into space unattended.  You can now grab your winding knob and sink the screw to the hilt.  Done.    Almost finished here...snap a QD or sling biner on.  Then grab your rope to make the final clip.  And now you are off again climbing or just as likely, relieved, taking a mental break and shaking your arms with no risk of catching big air.

Whaaaoooo!   Not quite that fast.  There are a couple of steps we missed here.  You likely are a smart climber so you racked all your Express screws with the winding knob up and open right?   Well I don't.  So I "set",  then turn my winding knob up, (good place to kick a "free" screw loose into space), then I start to wind.  Sink the screw, clip the screw, then clip the rope and finally flip the knob down.   Gotta remember to flip that knob down.   ( can't wait to hear how everyone else muddles through this better than me, as obviously many do:)

So easy to see my dilemma with a fast "bite" as oppose to a fast screw placement.  I like the Express and own  a rack of them specifically for hard alpine ice.  They are lighter than anything available and they 'set" amazingly fast.  But they don't place fast enough to be my preferred screw on water fall climbing.

*Since I am looking at the details here I had forgotten this one.  I think the offset hanger on the BD screws encourages you to start the wind off center to the axis of the screw.  So you get a wobbly start if you are not very careful.  Obviously you can over come this with practice.  But for the newbie or gumbie like myself it is annoying.  The hand position on the Helix (at least for my XL size hands)  naturally encourages you to be more centered to the axis of the screw on your *set*.  That alone almost makes up for the better design on the BD teeth imo.  And in practice makes the *set* on the Helix almost as fast, if not as fast,  as the BD screw for me.

What I would like to see is the BD tube and teeth with a totally new hanger.  No knob to futz with, but a big winder, a hanger that naturally centers your hand for a straight drive on the *set* and keep the BD weight advantage.  Easy enough to do.  BD has the technology in house right now for a hanger as I described it.  I had come to the same conclusion last winter just got there from a totally different train of thought.   Not likely to happen any time soon though :)   No one convinced it is needed except me.*

Damn, just wish my own screw of choice "set" that fast though......gotta think some more on this :)

Jeff again, on the 5th pitch, STH, Provo Canyon

More here on the BD Express screw:

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011/01/be-attentive-when-placing-ice-screws.html

Be attentive when placing ice screws!

A Grivel Helix buried with some terrain protection..but it wasn't an intentional act.   And until now I hadn't  thought much about the issue.  I wonder how many of us have?

The German DAV report and its pictures discussed in this entry are clear as to the issue but sadly I can't copy the context.  If anyone finds a version I can copy and paste [thank you Joe for the jpegs]please let me know.



This from Magnus Råström @ Black Diamond Equipment AG


"There was a ice climbing accident last season, no one got hurt but it could have ended really bad and the ice climbers were using our (BD) Express screws. Christ Semmel working for DAV investigated the accident and attached is his report in German. I have below a short summary in English.

Course of Action:
2 Ice climbers doing a multipitch route in Austria, using Mammut double ropes, for protection BD Express Ice Screw with a Austria Alpin QD Easy Classic and for belay a reverso. The axe and crampons of the lead climber (belayed from below) did pull out and the climber fell 12 m without ice contact or injury, but the mantel ripped on one of the ropes (see photo page one, blue rope). Chris came to the conclusion that the rope ripped because it was pulled over the crank knob of the ice screw. The photo on page one, red rope is the rope which they have tested and pulled over a crank knob. Chris is not negative against our ice screw’s and the conclusion is that when ice climbing with ice screw’s with crank knobs it is important to fold them in after use. Also he recommends the use of ice screws with crank knobs that you can fold in.

All the best,
Magnus Råström / Black Diamond Equipment AG"


I use and like both the BD Express and Grivel Helix.

I do how ever use Grivel Helix in much of my own steep water ice climbing with an obvious crank knob that does not fold in.  Worth noting the BD knobs are sharp in comparison.  It should be pretty obvious you don't want a rope running over them that will take weight.  The BD knob diameter at the small end is 9.5mm and the Grivel 15.5mm.   The Grivel knob is a synthetic, likely Delrin and smooth.   BD's knob is knurled aluminum and likely the last thing any of us want to run a rope over.    I don't want my rope running over either in a fall.  But if given a choice...I'll take a folded knob over the Grivel option.

But that isn't the total story.  You need to know more.

The direction at which you clip the hangers should also be very different on the BD as opposed to the Grivel screws.   The Grivel hanger offers a bit more play to set a screw and have the hanger flex on the screw to clear the ice.   That allows the Grivel knob to be closer to the ice where the BD hanger will always be forced intentionally to the outside.  Flip the BD knob down and you won't have a problem there.  Not so on the Grivel as you have no option but to hide the know in the terrain.  .

I disagree some what with Magnus' synopsis of the report and if that was accurate (and no reason to think it was not) the DAV report itself. 

Here is why:
It you hang a rope on the Grivel hanger it is more likely to do one of two things in my opinon :
One:  It will slide off to the outside of the hanger on the slick Delrin material

Two:  Or depending on the hanger clearance from the ice get trapped behind the hanger and run on the 16.5mm screw body itself and or the horizontally positioned hanger body.

Either option I would prefer to knurled aluminum and a vertical positioned 2.5mm thick stainless hanger.  So close your knobs on the BD Express screws!  And I wouldn't use screws with a fixed small diameter (knurled or not)  knob that mimics BD's hanger design is what I take away from this.  It is splitting hairs but important hairs I think.

It is all about the details, be careful out there!

 A Grivel Helix with the black knob and two BD Express, red knob up and the yellow knob tucked in.  Note the Grivel hanger is reversed compared to how it would actually be placed in the ice for this photo.

 Obvious difference in the Grivel horizontal hanger and BD's vertical hanger.  This is not the position the Grivel screw would normally be placed but 180 degrees reversed.  Knob up on Grivel.   Knob down for BD.

A long 2.7mm "blade" before you get to the knurled aluminum knob on the BD screw.

Beal 7.8 Ice twin on the BD knob which when left open caused a sheath failure in the fall.

I have no doubt you could catch a rope on the Grivel hanger, which you really do not want to do. Bottom line is be careful  out there and think about each  and every placement.  For my money twin or dbl ropes on ice make a lot of sense.



Two pictures of the Grivel Helix in the position a rope would normally be caught from above.  With the hanger totally at the end of its movement and the carabiner hole is to the inside, the knob is angled down so a rope would generally just slip off of it or the rope will run behind the hanger and on to the screw tube body.   This seems an unlikely event (but certainly possible) because only ice behind the knob end of the hanger would force it into this position.

If the hanger does have space behind it after the screw is placed no question you can easily hook the rope there in a fall.

But again better a 17.5mm radius (Grivel's tube) to run your rope over than a 9.5mm radius (BD's knob)  with the addition of several sharp edges to help the damage along.

Worth repeating I think.

For my money twin or dbl ropes on ice make a lot of sense.

Miles of vertical ice have been climbed with either style screw and hanger and as many miles with screws and hangers not nearly as good.  I'll continue to climb on both BD and Grivel screws and choose accordingly to which fits my project best.  I'm not suggesting panic here just that you keep your eyes and mind open to the possibilities.  

Racking screws?

Everyone seems to use the plastic clippers from BD and Petzl.  I do as well but I don't know many who haven't broken one or lost screws at one point or another.

I think there is a market for a hot forged aluminum....racking specific biner......... in the $20+ retail range.  I mean come on!!  Loose one screw and it is $60 these days!!!  $20 would be a bargin for a hot forged clipper done right.  I'd prefer the Petzl pattern myself and no rubber bands or tape.  BD? Calling BD??!!
Come on guys..."do it for the children"  :-)
But till them Joe has a good idea.   Good enough I am going to go looking for some big biners this week.

Ice, Snice and a good Screw...

Here is another recycled bit from 2/1/10 early last winter.



I wrote the following on 2/28/08

"Ice screws? If you are not currently climbing with the newest generation of Grivel screws you are wasting energy. I’ve tried EVERY new screw design currently on the market, in almost every snow and ice condition you can think of. With all due respect to Black Diamond, and with no hype, no bs, there is no other manufacture even close to Grivel's current production. The Grivel screws are as revolutionary to ice climbing as Jardine's Friends were 30 years ago. Big statement I know. But placing good gear, easily, where you want it instead of were you could makes climbing much, much easier and a lot safer."

"To support my comments I have the newest Grivels (360s and Helix) and both models of the newest BD screws on my rack now. I'll stand by my original comments as the Helix being the best of the bunch the majority of time. Although the 360 is good may be even a toss up with the BDs..although the BDs rack/stack and deploy much easier. The BDs just don't start or cut ice as easily. I am not a big fan of the 360, wacky hanger design, although the 360 does have an advantage over all of them in tight placements."

"Sitting here at the key board I see that the BD screw has longer initial teeth and a thinner tube profile. Both of which should be an advantage over the Grivel chewing into ice. Grivel threads start a bit shallower at the teeth (by 1/10s of an inch). Which technically means it will start a bit quicker but it isn't much. The thread designs are totally different from Grivel to BD. Grivel's finish is obviously smoother. All issues which will make a difference +/- in performance.

I'll easily admit both Companies offer good products and everyone develops there own preferences."

In the past two years, I have learned a lot about ice screw manufacture. The level of nickel plating, the weight of ice screws, the differences in thread, tooth and tube profiles and the inside diameter of the tubes. I've looked at the hanger designs and how that effects racking and initial placement.

In design and manufacture I would have thought that the newest BD screws would have been the best available. I've seen a multitude of in house tests that show all sorts of info why the BD or the Grivel tubes are the "best".

I am a big believer in numbers so the other day I pulled out a few more brand new BD Express screws to make up for the other half of my Helix rack I would leave at home. Off I went, fat, dumb and happy to the local ice crag.

Mind you the climbing wasn't hard...WI4 and good feet but really bad ice. Ice was covered with snow in many places, terribly chandelier and thin. Scary enough for me that many times I was placing two screws at a time hoping to get at least one solid screw if I wasn't hitting rock. Not a technique I would normally use or recommend so you can get an idea on my mind set. In 130 feet I placed 9 screws as pro. 6 of them were placed as 3 pairs.

Once again I got a clear picture of the actual physical differences between BD and Grivel screw placement. I then spent part of the afternoon today, resharpening the same batch of screws, both BD and Grivel.

Some of my observations I found interesting while doing the sharpening. The BD screws remind me of a fine honed razor knife. Really sharp but something that won't hold an edge for long or be very durable. Cuts well till it gets dull. But the thinner side walls and razor edge dulls quickly in my experience. The Grivel on the other hand have more of what I would call a "combat edge", that stays sharp even with some abuse. Both take some effort to resharpen to factory spec.

I don't particularly like the 360. I find the crank and hanger too cumbersome in use. So I generally don't use it. The Helix marginally better. But enough better that I prefer its down sides over the additional effort to place a BD Express. I have no loyalty to any gear manufacture be it BD or Grivel. My loyalty is guaranteed by what works.

So I used the Helix on water ice almost exclusively. But because of the huge weight savings over any other steel screw I take the BD Turbos into the alpine...for water ice or snice. There is so little "real" difference in use between the two brands. But the weight difference is a "big" thing. 20g or close to 1 oz in a 6 oz screw.

Last winter a BD Express literally saved my live while being lowered off a thin lead and one of my two screws popped out of marginal snice. Another place where I had set a pair of screws hoping for the best. A pair of BD Express this time and the only gear 60 feet out, set in a tiny patch of "hope and a prayer" snice, 10" apart. The first screw popped within milliseconds after taking full body weight! The second took the dynamic load and then held, thankfully. My guardian angel had to work over time for a few months last year :)

Screws are really expensive these days. BD Express or the Grivel Helix can be had for $55/60.
I pay retail for mine and it is painful. I'd suggest you "try before you buy" if it is possible.

A comment from a buddy I trust, Doug Shepard, doing a BD Turbo Express review in Dec of '07.


"How is real world performance? These things rock!

They start easier than my old BD screws. At least as fast to start and place as the Grivel 360 screws in my opinion, which I thought was the fastest screw on the market to place. Combined with the multiple clip-in points, this screw takes what is great about the Petzl Laser (ease of use), the Grivel 360 (extremely easy to start), and the old Turbo Express (durability and ease of racking) and duplicates or improves on each idea.

Multiple partners have all commented on how much easier the new Turbo Express screws are to start, place, and remove. They are an all-around improvement over the old model. Only time and extended use will tell how durable they are compared to the old model and competing products."


Bottom line? You can get too anal about some things :) I am about ice screws for sure. To some extent it is personal preference and what you are most used to climbing with. Between the BD and Grivel the difference is little. Obviously I have a preference and I am sure the BD crew cringes and roll their eyes, rightfully so, when I post something like this, while Gioachino @ Grivel rubs his hands in glee.

The newest generation of ice screws are amazing. In many ways they have opened up much of the new mixed terrain and allowed the old "classics" to be done faster and much safer. There are no losers here.

Screw sharpening?

This one is by request... Black Diamond's version of how to sharpen an ice screw.