Patagonia's Encapsil™ Down Belay Parka....

Encapsil down high on Huascaran Sur, Cordillera Blanca

Photo courtesy of Jd Merritt and Carl Dean 

 

 

Patagonia sez:
"The finest down parka ever made. The Encapsil™ Down Belay Parka is 100% independently baffled and differentially cut, and insulated with Patagonia’s Encapsil™ down - a proprietary, plasma-treated, water-repellent down with an unprecedented fill-power of 1000; numbered, limited edition."

OK, up front, ya I want one. This after playing with a loaner from Patagonia for a couple of weeks.   And not something I ever thought I'd want to admit to.  Just can't get past the $700 buy in.

Eddie Bauer Peak XV jacket?

I have a long history of using Eddie Bauer gear.  Longer than I can remeber actually as one the first down bags was I used was Eddie Bauer that I borrowed from my Mother on early over night trips to the back yard!

So the brand name was a household word growing up in Washington and Idaho for me.

In 1977 there were better down garments available in Europe.  Moncler and Egge were two that were easily available in the US at the time.   I took my Monclear Teray jacket to Nepal the spring of  '77.   It was so obviously a better climbing jacket than the Eddie Bauer Karakorum we were supplied with.

The Terray, after a open bivy, high on Mt. Deborah, Alaska, May of'76

Eddie Bauer sponsored and supported John Roskelley and I in the spring of 1977 for a two man attempt on Makalu's West Pillar. (the first two man 8KM permit given in Nepal)  John got ill on the walk in thankfully, as the project even today would be serious challenge for the best two man team. Although it does perk one's imagination doesn't it!

My friends John, Chris Kopcynski, Jim States and Kim Momb went back to Makalu in 1980 and after a concerted effort with fixed camps were able to put John, alone, on the summit.

http://www.himalayanclub.org/journal/makalu-west-pillar/

JR (back), Kop (center), Kim(right) and myself  on top of Takkakaw '82. 

Lots of down in the picture, none of it from Eddie Bauer

So while we all knew about Eddie Bauer and they did supply a lot of expedition support back in the day by the time I  was doing much all the EB gear was well dated.

In fact past the down sweaters I really wasn't interested in much of what Eddie Bauer was selling, until recently.

Funny story really.  Someone started complaining on an Internet forun (imagine that!) about the newest First Ascent Peak XV jacket.  And how they had washed it in a machine and the baffles had ripped apart. (imagine that!)   Even though the jacket had been given to him, shall we say "very well used" after an Everest trip and more.  Eddie Bauer's retail store honored the lifetime warrenty and gave him instore credit or a new jacket.  His choice.

Whittaker Mountaineering Gear Review: First Ascent Peak XV Down Parka from Whittaker Mountaineering on Vimeo.

I was impressed by the warrenty.  So next time I was in town I made a point of stopping by the local Eddie Bauer store.  And didn't expect much.  What I found shocked me.  The Peak VX was the best heavy weight, technical,  down jacket I had ever seen.  With a price point no one could match.  I ended up buying 2 that season...one as a spare as I figured the price would never be equaled for what I was buying.    

A couple of years later and my mind hasn't changed.  The original Peak XV is still the best, heavy weight, technical down jacket I have seen or used.  The second version isn't bad either.  Lucky for us both versions are available.    The Peak XV is a good start.  Eddie Bauer now has all sorts of different clothing pieces that are exceptional values.  Mind you not all of the First Ascent gear is...but some are simply amazing, no matter the price point compared to value and design.  As I get the time I'll write up the gear from Eddie Bauer that has truly become "go to" climbing and skiing garments for me and my extended family.

If I were to go back to Makalu tomorrow this is the jacket I would take. But it is not a jacket most will have a use for.  It is simply too warm.

But it would work just fine in fall/winter on the north side of Rainer as well.  Ptarmigan in Oct. '75.

More here on my thoughts about some of the most popular belay jackets:

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/02/belay-jacketsthe-heavy-weights.html

The Shell Shoot off? Active Shell, NeoShell, Dry.Q™ Elite and MemBrain Strata!

This is a review/comparison I have wanted to make for some time. I'm finally collected four (and may be more) different garments that I think will make a good write up. And thanks to the member's encouragement  Arc'teryx, Mountain Hardware, Outdoor Reasearch and Westcomb and several other manufactures have promised to join us.  Big plans for the field tests and comparisons .  Written review to come in late September or early October.

I am only interested in the stretch versions of a water proof  shell.  If there are others you think should be in this comparison please let me know.

Here are what I have so far thanks to the reader's suggestion.  Hopefully the reviews and comparisons will answer all your questions.  We'll have a couple of very experienced climbers joining me for this one.  This will be the first review of its kind on Cold Thistle.

Gore-Tex’s new stretch version of its highly breathable Active Shell fabric.  This one from OR.

Polartec has developed its own waterproof, breathable fabric NeoShell.  This one from Westcomb 

Marmot  lightweight waterproof / breathable technology, MemBrain® Strata™ 100% Nylon Stretch.  This one from Marmot obviously.

The new Dry.Q™ Elite from Monuntain Hardware

I'll add to the list once I know what we are really testing.

Patagonia Nano Puff Pull Over?

This is a great piece of clothing  but up front I am not a big fan of Patagonia.  I think they are over priced, and the fit is generally terrible.  The fit has always been off...and nothing seems to have changed in 30 years.  Arcteryx is a good comparison...high priced but a great fit in almost every single piece of clothing they make.   The Atom Lt is one of my favorite pieces of cold weather clothing because of the fit.

Atom Lt in the Icefields in Nov.

I bought two of the Nano Puff Pullovers on sale this winter.  One for a buddy's BD present and one for myself.  If I had known just how good they were I might have given my buddy a decent bottle of wine instead of the Nano!

The best thing I can say about Patagonia is they have a stellar warranty and refund policy.  So no question what you buy will either live up to your satisfaction or you can get you money back or do an exchange.  I've done both in the past but generally stay away from Patagonia clothing because of fit. 

In the last year I have had two different pairs of Micro puff pants...neither size fit.  One of  the other pieces from Patagonia I used this winter was the Hooded Down Sweater.  Which I liked a lot except for the fact t was down.

I wouldn't be writing this one up if I didn't think the Nano Puff was truly a stellar piece of kit.

Like almost any light weight piece of clothing I use the Nano Puff as part of my layering system.  With the Nano it is generally used as a wind shell or over layer.  When it is warm enough I'll use it as an wind and insulation layer over a thin R1 hoody or collared R1 layer.  The R1s are another excellent piece of kit from Patagonia.   They also fit much better than the norm.

  Nano Puff Pull over used with a R1 pullover.

In cold weather I'll use the Nano Puff as a wind shell and additional insulation layer over an Arcteryx Atom Lt hoody.  Awesome combo that gives me 100g/m worth of insulation while still keeping the extra breathability of the Atom Lt side and under arm panels.  Easy combo to climb technical ground with.

-20C and windy @ 10K feet...a Atom Lt Hoody used with a Nano Puff as the wind shell layer.

There were only a couple of clothing items I wore almost every day in Chamonix late this winter and into spring.   We had temps of 0 and -25C between storms and brilliant sunshine.  The Nano Puff pullover was one of the few pieces of clothing I had with me that was versatile enough to use at both ends of the temperature extremes.

Sadly the Pull Over version doesn't fit me the same as the full zip or hooded full zip.   The Pull over is the only one that I think fits well enough to buy.   I'd own one of each  of the others if they did actually fit.  Even in my XL size  this pull over  jacket packs up super small and adds way more warmth than expected for the thickness of the insulation. I really like climbing in this rig.  It breaks the wind and adds enough insulation to make even a cold day in the sun super fun.  At the moment I own one...the bright green shown here.  But it won't be just one for long.   They don't take the abuse of rock or sharp objects well.   Next time I get the chance I'll find and buy another on sale.   This is a piece of clothing anyone can use and one worth throwing in the pack anytime you head above treeline.

Not many pieces of clothing I get really excited about.  The Nano Puff and the Atom Lt make an unbeatable combination for alpine climbing...and other fun, cold weather things as well!

 

Polartec NeoShell ?

I am expecting the Polartec NeoShell to live up to the pre production media hype.  Enough so that I am about to spend a good bit of the next 6 weeks climbing and skiing in a Westcomb's newest Apoc jacket made of NeoShell material.  One of the original testers is a buddy of mine and when pressed called NeoShell, "the missing link".   And he is someone that might actually recognise the "missing link"  if he saw it.  (or was wearing it)  High praise indeed from someone I trust on gear.    We'll see just how well it does in the real world shortly. 

Till then the video is entertaining!




http://www.polartec.com/shelter/polartec-neoshell/

http://www.westcomb.com/product/3/jackets-vests.html

Climbing Salopettes (bibs) and the "NWAlpinist Salopette"

The idea of a bibbed pant is so old to me now that I am a not sure sure how I came to it. 

Some where between a hike out Marble canyon from Deltaform in June of 1975 or coming down the cow path after doing Ptarmigan Ridge in single boots and the resulting frozen feet that fall certainly had something to do with the thought process.

I do remember finally taking my wool knickers off  and walking in my shorts as my thighs were bleeding by the end of the wet 25k hike out from Deltaform.  My feet?  Still an issue with cold today.

I've no doubt that the winter gear suggestions of British Alpinists Joe Tasker and Dick Renshaw in MOUNTAIN LIFE, August/September 1975 had a big impact on us after Ptarmigan Ridge.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011/02/joe-tasker-and-dick-renshaw-english.html

Gwain, three days out, after a harried retreat down through the ice fall on the north side of Mt Deborah.

By the spring of 1976 we were kitted in lightly insulated, nylon shelled,  ski salopettes with minor modifications to make them climbing friendly.   They worked great.  Warmer than a normal pant set up while generally enabling you to drop a layer and on long trips and a distinct lack of another "waist".  The harness is more than enough there.

By the early '80s many of  the professionals working in the mtns around Banff were using a Swiss made wool/nylon blend salopette with cotton canvas reinforcements.  The canvas dried slowly and wore quickly so just as common to cut the knee and butt reinforcements off pretty quickly.  But the wonderful and warm wool stretch material they used, the chest pocket, internal gaiter (which many just cut out as well) and side zip were a glimpse as the future in technical mountain pants.  It was the '80s so even my shoe laces matched but these saloppetes really rocked!  Now way to get lost in a white out either so big bonus points there for pictures.

Take it to the extreme and you get something like our friend Kim wore on the 1st ascent of the East Face of Everest in '83.  And he was back on Kanchenjunga with them in 1985.  Shown here.  Fully insulated and Gortex salopettes by Wilderness Experience.  Gregg Cronn photo of Kim on Kanchenjunga. "It's a magical thing with me. It's tough to stay in Kansas when you've been to Oz."  (Kim Momb, 1956-1986)

As you might imagine a good pair of salopettes aren't what you would generally see on a day out cragging in Hyalite Canyon for example.  The additional warmth and comfort of a pair of salopettes aren't a high priority when some actually put their crampons on at in the parking lot.

The result of the "sport climbing" community in the ice climbing environment is much of the gear and clothing gets dummied down (and I know people will just LOVE that) to fit the much bigger customer base.  No longer a need for double boots, salopettes, or a small, super light weight climbing pack if you are top roping or leading 50m climbs as the ultimate expression of the sport.

One of the main reasons I write the blog is to make others aware of what is out there for specialised gear and may be even reintroduce some old technology that has gone by the way side. that clearly should not have IMO.

Which is why I beat the "light is right" campaign, double boots, specialised climbing sacs, better crampon fit/designs and now I am going to get deep into the clothing discussion in a number of up coming blogs posts.

One of the reasons those old red salopettes were so functional is that they were wool, they were a bit stretchy and they breathed well.  Sounds pretty modern now for a piece of 30 year old kit doesn't it?

20 years on (2002) and leave it to Alteryx to come up with a better version.   Those in the "know" searched them out promptly and bought the Alteryx Gamma Saloppete and proceeded to love them to death.   Known butts I have seen well worn Arcteryx saloppetes on are Cosmin Andron, Steve Swenson, Wayne Wallace, Michael Layton and Bill Belcourt...and trust me I don't make a habit of looking at men's butts!   I suspect there are more salopettes out there stashed away for that next "big" project. This was the last time I pulled mine out. 

GCC photos below are courtesy of Ken Glover

But the great thing about a correctly designed and sewn set of salopettes is they can be used for cold weather cragging just as easily as on any big north face..

The Arcteryx Salopette reviewed by John Graham @ http://www.trailspace.com/gear/arcteryx/gamma-salopette/#reviews
January 1, 2002

"This one-piece sleeveless suit has power shield on the lower half and Schoeller fabric on the top, with nylon facing on the upper front. It zips all the way down the front and up the legs. It has removable knee pads that really save the arthritic knees. I wear this instead of bibs and it really comes into its own when exposed to the wind. It can get a little hot climbing steeply below treeline, but vents very well. I wear it with mid weight polypro bottoms and a power stretch top. When I hit treeline, I pair it with the Gamma SV and a balaclava and I'm good to go. Every detail is well thought out and of course the Arc'Tyrex fit is perfect, as usual."

John's comments are pretty much as I found my own pair of Gamma Saloppetes.

Arcteryx Gamma Salopettes design details:
Designed for mountaineering applications, this breathable garment sheds snow and provides liberating stretch. Special features include removable kneepads and through-the-crotch WaterTight zips.

Features:
Adjustable cuff shock cord
Breathable, wind and water resistant
Four way polyester stretch upper
Internal knee pad pockets
Keprotec instep patches
Removable molded EVA foam kneepads
Stretch woven lower
Two chest pockets with laminated zips
WaterTight side and through-the-crotch zips

Materials:
Polartec Power Shield
Rentex Lofted Lycra
Schoeller Keprotec

It doesn't take much imagination to see that salopettes are a pretty specialised piece of kit and not the best in warm weather.  Additionally if you are using a soft shell material like my original  wool blend Swiss salopettes or the more recent Arcteryx Gamma how warm do you want to make them, at the risk of making them too warm?

With all the new wonder fabrics and some good design work one would think you could make an almost perfect climbing salopette these days.  Likely the biggest *trick* to that would be getting someone that was willing to design with no compromise.   No fufu ski fashions or snow board shredders needed here.  How about for once just a honest to GOD climbing salopette?    Just as Tasker and Renshaw first envisioned them 35 years ago while climbing the hardest North faces in the Alps, mid winter?

I'd pony up some cash  for a couple pair of those! 

Enter Bill Almos and his start up climbing clothing company NWAlpine.   http://nwalpine.com/
Bill is, if nothing else, an alpine climber himself.  And willing to take risks.

So when we first talked about light weight pile hoodies and Shoeller style alpine climbing pants we were talking mostly the same language.  I'm old so I am not sure what he thought of a "new" old pant idea as a NWAlpine offering.  But he didn't say no.  So I boxed my last two remaining pair of salopettes up and off to Portland they went.    Having never met Bill or owned any NWAlpine clothing (I own several now items now) I wondered for a moment or two if I would ever actually see my original and much loved salopettes again.   Similar things have happened in the past.  Same situation and sadly, most unreliable people.

Not so this time!

So Bill and I began brain storming via emails, what would we do to make a better *alpine climbing* specific bib?  It was a short storm.  I wanted a bib that would be warm enough, if a little cool for Alaska in the spring.  Hopefully they would be fine for most things if you could move quickly in the Rockies or Alps in winter.  And a plenty warm pant for anything in the lower 48.  Again, specifically for winter or cold alpine climbs.  Ptarmigan Ridge on Rainier or anything in the Columbia Icefields in Oct or Feb was the environment I envisioned.

I am doing much of my own climbing in a pair of Arcteyx Gamma LT pants these days and s single pair of mid weight Costco long johns.  I won't kid anyone, at times it is just barely enough when the temps drop below -10C or a nasty cold wind picks up.  But going on the theory that cool muscles work more efficiently..so far it has been enough.   But for a new pair of Saloppetes I wanted just a bit more.  Not as much as the last Arcteryx Gamma MX salopettes mind you.  They were more akin to the current Gamma MX pants (Polartec® Power Shield®) which is lightly insulated.  But I wanted these to be some where just short of that extra insulation and lighter in over all weight. MUCH, much lighter, and way less complicated.  Less zippers, less pockets for sure, but still a usable.  The idea was a lwt climbing pant where just the additional bib will add some warmth by design without adding weight.  One less belt at the waist line and more comfort was the goal.

Weight comparisons?

ARC Gamma Lt large 12.4 oz
H. Ridge Runner 3/4 16oz
ARC Gamma MX large 19oz
NWAlpine salopettes large 21.6oz
ARC Gamma MX salopettes large 30.4oz

I have to admit "formal", as in basic black, climbing pants is getting old.


"My" salopettes need to be warm, wind proof,  extremely breathable on the upper bib portion, breathable enough in the leg and waist and all made of a 4 way stretch fabric.  No  baggy legs to snag crampons on, hardcore and durable patches of some type on the lower inside of the calf for when you will eventually snag a crampon. Turned over double hemmed cuffs for "gaiter" durability.  Simple eyelets for elastic cord to snug down your "pant gaiter". Simple. Succinct. Specific.

Reinforced inside of the leg for crampons and simple gaiter grommets

Cuffed hems to reinforce the bungee gaiter strap and seal the leg's gaiter, which were designed up front to take a big dbl boot like the La Sportiva Spantik.

A THREE slider, chest and crotch, water resistant zipper.  For the call of nature, ventilation and getting in and out of the garment.   Easiest  pee portal in the world with a harness on.  Easy for me and I suspect even better for a woman. 

Hey, no laughing here!  This is a hard photo to post in public let alone take by yourself!  Zipper runs from sternum to tailbone.

NWAlpinist Salopette details:
Suggested Retail is $250  sizes XS through XL
The first production run will be presold. via the NWAlpine web site
http://nwalpine.com/


Everyone in the industry these days is using either a proprietary material or something from Polartec and/or Shoeller.  almost no one is sewing in the USA.  These bibs are proudly sewn in Portland Oregon.
The pant material  currently in the NWAlpinist Saloppetes is a proprietary material.  Bill is already prepared to change the material and still keep the quality if the original supply can't keep up with demand after the first production run.  Currently the pant is made of a a high quality four-way stretch, woven, breathable softshell fabric with a abrasion resistant face with DWR coating. The usual suspects use exactly the same material at the moment.  Your imagination won't have to roam far to imagine this material. 

The upper fabric of the bib  is a "micro denier fleece back lycra".  My thought is, it is perfect for the job.  And I am really picky here because the upper material has to breath extremely well to make the salopette idea work like it needs to.  (SAG's) Merino wool hoody shown in the photo as well.  More on it lower down the page.

Trust me, this light weight bib top is breathable.  It is likely the first thing you'll notice if you try to use these Salopettes without enough insulation on your upper body as I did.  You'll likely not make that mistake twice.

How the upper body fits in the shoulders, arms and around the neck defines how salopettes fit in many ways...these are exceptional on me.

There is a couple of things that become glaringly obvious when you are 50+ and modeling a one piece lycra suit.  The first, much to my surprise you know, is I obviously aint a flat bellied stallion no more...no more :)  No hiding that one from a camera.  But being shaped more like a Pear (as in fruit) also tells me a lot about how well these salopettes might fit,  shall we say, a more athletic proportioned climber.  They should fit normal climbers exceptionally well.  I have a 21" back which is pretty long for my height @ 6'1".  So the typical issues and where you will have a problem, of not having enough length in the body and having  "crotch bite"  or baggy pants, shouldn't be a problem for most with this pattern.   Mine are a "Large" and me fit perfectly..well close, if I suck in the Pear anyway.

This is how I see myself......a long lean climbing machine.  It is what I can't see that may be a problem with that glorified self image :)

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing to add but when there is nothing left to take away"    Antoine de Saint-Exupery



Wind, Sand and Stars (French title:Terre des hommes (Land of Men)) by Antoine de Saint Exupéry published in 1939

I suspect the next question is how do you layer under and over salopettes.   No question it is a learned skill.  The first pictures of this blog show Gwain in the mid '70s with several light layers inside and a wool shirt on the out side.  These days most of our mid layers have snug hems.  You don't need to tuck everything in and you'll stay warmer in many cases by not doing so with Salopettes.  So nothing has really changed.  Just the upper insulation garments have gotten even better and easier to use with Salopettes.  My current "go to pieces" for the upper body (with salopettes or pants) are the super light weight Sherpa Adventure Gear (SAG) Merino wool hoody shown in the pictures above, called the "Khushi" (it is a must have).  Or the NWAlpine LT Hoody (another must have).  Next up is the RI Hoody or the SAG "Tchimi" hoody or again the NWAlpine Black Spider Hoody.

All light weight hoodies suggested here with only the amount of insulation and how well they breath changes for the project, the level of effort involved and temps.

Next up?  Lots of mid layer pile pieces to choose from but one I am thrilled with, especially if you are using salopettes, is the Sherpa Adventure Gear sweater made of of Merino wool arms and Primaloft One body.  It is called the  "Mantra".

It a different piece and you'll likely need to figure out if it will work for your system.  I really like light to mid weight Merino wool sweaters with full or half zip for climbings.  I buy them at Men's Warehouse on sale and literally wear them untill I have holes in them.  So the Matra fits right in and adds some extra warmth with less weight in the Primaloft 1 body.  But more importantly the Primaloft One is much easier to dry out than wool and  looses only a tiny bit of its insulation values when wet.   A hood would make the men's Mantra much more user friendly for hard climbing.  It is a truly dapper casual, around town, garment that I use climbing without a hood.  But I'd really like to have both as an option!  If you think so too let Sherpa Adventure Gear know!   I'll buy the first.

I am a big hoody fan.  If you are a woman the Mantra comes with a hood in the women's verion.  I can't imagine a better winter climbing system than a pair of NWAlpinist salopettes and the "Kushi" mated up with Mantra hoody and one or both of the Arcteryx's Atom LT and Atom SV jackets.  San's that hood it is my current system.   And damn..I'll be looking simply dapper in the Chamonix bar scene in that black (hid the spare tire) Mantra!  The woman's Mantra is good enough I bought my wife one...and she is NEVER going to alpine climb.  She calls me a "girl" quite a lot so may be I do know something about women's clothing :)

I'll have to ask.

I have another blog started on hoodies, light and mid weights, and how they fit into my systems along with my pant and base layer choices.  But I wanted to give the basics of what I use with salopettes as many have likely never used a pair climbing.

http://www.sherpaadventuregear.com/index.php

http://nwalpine.com/

http://www.arcteryx.com/?EN

And if you wondered?  I have no financial connection to NWAlpine but I did come up with the name NWAlpinist Salopettes but only after getting my originals back!

Arcteryx Atom LT Hoody....just how good is it?

Jim asked,  "You have mentioned that you use the Atom LT.  I looked at one in the store and really liked it, but two things stopped me.

What is with the stretch side panels? I haven't seen this on any other parka. Seems like this would cost warmth with little upside.

No hood adjustment at all. WTF? Seems like this would be a huge PITA. Doesn't this make the hood next to useless?"


Yes the Atom LT is one of my main stay pieces for cold weather climbing.  And one of my better investments in awhile for my own gear. I have and use two of them constantly. The vents are critical for using this jacket/sweater and do allow you to use a super light weight (as in .oz)  insulated garment  that is a lot warmer for the weight than anything else I can think of,  because it breathes so well. Wild Things and Mtn Hardware have now copied the technology/design for their own versions. Hood is actually very good!  No issue what so ever and easily fits over a helmet. It is extremely user friendly in fact.

The down sides?  The shell material doesn't fair well rolling around on hard mixed.  Rock climbing, chimney and off width, will shred them pretty easily.   Soft shells are the weapon of choice there.
The stretch panels?  They aren't very wind resistant.  A lwt wind shirt under the Atom Lt will up the warmth in a cold wind.  But the Atom is still no belay jacket imo.  It is a climbing garment not a belay garment in cold weather.  Think sweater, not jacket.  The zipper?  I had it pointed out to me that the zipper has no lock on it.  Intentional by design to make it last longer I was told.  I'd been using the Atom Lt for a year before I realised this fact.  Read it actually.  Loaned a buddy one of my spare Atom Lts and he hated the zipper.  I have never, ever noticed it.  So no down side for me at all.  But worth knowing.

And the Atom LT can be used as a mid layer easy enough in the rock climbing situation to beef up the temps a soft shell can be used in with some comfort.  The Atom LT's pattern and trim fit help there.  It isn't the most intuitive way to layer (with a wind short or soft shell) but it works for certain projects.

Weight comparisons?

Lightly insulated jackets (belay sweaters) and shells:

EB Downlight Hoodie Pullover XL 15.4 oz   455g
EB Frontpoint XL 18.5oz   547g
Arcteryx Atom lt Hoody large 14.4oz   429g
Arcteryx Atom Hoody SV 19.0 oz   562g
Mtn Hardware Compressor Hoody 19.8oz   586g
Arcteryx Gamma MX Hoody XL 24oz   710g
Arcteryx Squamish pullover XL 5.6oz   166g

On that list only the Compressor, Atom SV and EB Down Hoody are warmer.  All are a tiny bit heavier and generally too warm to climb in alone as the 2nd layer because.....they don't breath nearly as well as the Atom LT.   I will most typically add any of those three as a third layer when belaying or for climbing (more likely descending) when it is really cold out or the wind comes up.


It is a green Atom Lt in this picture with the black Compressor Hoody jacket used as my belay jacket over it.  Pretty cold belaying in this picture and then again, I peeled the Compressor and just climbed in the Atom LT and a R1 hoody.

The Atom lt can be a mid layer for warmth. But I use it generally as a outer shell garment for cold weather climbing when I am very active. I no longer use a mid layer   Some type of Hoody on the skin,  likely a SAG Khushi, NWAlpine Hoody or R1. Then my 2nd layer, generally a Atom LT or a shell garment like the EB Frontpoint or a soft shell Arcteryx Gamma MX.  The Atom LT (or anything similar in weight like the Nano Puff)  is NOT a belay jacket...more a "belay sweater" and not that warm in the grand scheme of things if you are going to use it like that. Which I do if the temps permit it.

More here on what I think is a better layering system.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/winter-layers.html

In the Ice fields late Nov. Good wind blowing while we discuss the avi conditions.

The Joke Slinger in his Atom LT at -20 something when the extra venting under the arms is crucial.

Another pretty cold day and in the shade.  But that is the point, the Atom LT allows you to climb in relative comfort (and it was "relative comfort" on this day in lwt single boots) on some pretty cold days.

More here on the idea of a climbing sweater.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/12/climbing-sweater.html

Sherpas, some random thoughts and "Sherpa Adventure Gear"...

Photo courtesy of Mtn. of Travel web site

http://www.mountainsoftravelphotos.com/Makalu/Main.html

In the spring of 1977 John Roskelly and I left Spokane WA to attempt the West Pillar of Makalu with the first permission for a two person attempt on a Nepalese 8K meter peak.  Luckily for both of us in retrospect,  John became severely ill on the walk in and our trip ended as a complete failure, still days from the mountain.

A 4 person Spokane team, again including John, returned to Makalu in 1980.  John summitted alone on that trip but with the support of our friends Jim States, Chris Kopczyski and Kim Momb.  The climb was made without Sherpa support.

But John's and my short walk was a life changing event for me.

I had just started guiding in the NW a few years earlier and knew some of the the hazards even small peaks offer.  The size, elevation and remoteness of the big Himalayan peaks was truly awe inspiring in 1977 and continue to be so now.

I was not comfortable in 1977 even paying porters to carry my gear into the mountains.  I could not in good conscious ask anyone to climb a mountain with me simply for a salary.  Even if that was likely the only salary available.  I did not like the economic realities of the relationship and did not want to be a part of it.

I have no clue how it is now but there was a pretty stark difference between the standard of living we enjoyed in the USA and the gear we would use compared to what the standard of living was in Nepal and the gear (which would be part of their salary) we would offer our porters or climbing Sherpas.    I have not gone back to climb in Nepal but even in 1977 I was uncomfortable asking anyone else to risk their life to come out and "play with me".

Enter Joe Puryear decades later.  I admired Joe's Alaska climbs and we exchanged a few emails on routes he had done there. (there were few he hadn't)  Joe was always gracious and gave freely of his time to complete strangers like myself.


Photo courtesy of  Joe Puryear http://www.joepuryearimages.com/

You couldn't help but also notice on Joe's web site his climbing in Nepal and his obvious involvement in the Sherpa community.

http://climbnepal.blogspot.com/

I am sure there were others previous to Joe's and David's trips doing something similar but they certainly inspired me by their actions.  They seemed to be involved in Nepal and the people not  just just taking advantage of  situation economically and getting to "climb on some one else's back".   I liked what I saw and admired them for it.

If you look at Joe's web pages one of his sponsors is a company called Sherpa Adventure Gear.

http://www.sherpaadventuregear.com/index.php

To be honest until yesterday I thought Sherpa Adventure Gear was a small company, based in Nepal.  Likely Kathmandu, and  making the odd piece of funky wool bits.  Joe's trade mark hats for example :)    I figured Joe was just supporting a local cause for the best of reasons.    Nothing could have been farther from the truth on the "funky wool bits".   But I have no doubt Joe was "supporting a good cause for the best of reasons", just as Sherpa Adventure Gear was supporting Joe's avocation.   By all accounts it was a close and supportive relationship from both sides.

Here is the company line:

"Sherpa Adventure Gear was inspired by the many unsung Sherpa heroes of Everest. From the start, our goal has been to create outstanding outdoor clothing and gear you can depend on. But more than this, we want to show you a glimpse of the Sherpa culture and way of life. And at the same time support our Sherpa community back home. Whether you are looking for gear on your next adventure, or just want to learn more about the Sherpa people, you can discover all this in our website."

Tashi Sherpa
Founder and President

More here:
http://www.sherpaadventuregear.com/aboutus.php

Surprisingly Sherpa Adventure Gear is actually based in Renton Wa.  Owned and staffed by Sherpa family members for the most part.  But make no mistake this isn't a simple "mom and pop" operation.   They have a national and international dealer network as well as several successful retail stores in Nepal.  Sherpa Adventure Gear is serious player in active outdoor wear world wide.  The majority of their products are sewn in Nepal with a smaller percentage in China at the moment.  Mr. Tashi Sherpa and his immediate family are the driving force here and in Nepal.

As a small manufacture myself I have begun to look at what I make, how that effects others, the products useful life span and how my products are recycled.

It makes me more aware of what others are doing in their own communities and why.

The climbing community, especially the alpine climbing community is very small.  And it hasn't changed much in the decades I have been involved with it..  We are in fact a large family.   Death is a fact in alpine climbing.  Joe Puryear's death last year effected many climbers, locally and Internationally.    It will happen again...and again.  It is part of our game.

This is a hard blog to write.  Too many serious issues that most (including myself) would rather ignore.  So I'll stop there.

I wouldn't have brought up Sherpa Adventure Gear here if I didn't think they were making some incredible products for hard alpine climbing, no matter what their politics were.  But their politics stood out to me.  I was introduced to the company yesterday and bought a couple of their pieces for my own use that I will review in the blog.  Just wanted to give a heads up for a business and business model I admire in many ways.

"Namiste"

Real world weight comparisons?

I wanted to make an actual comparison of gear weights and see what the real world differences are on a  team with very similar gear set ups and how small choices might or might not effect us.

We are suited up for a long one day of climb that is realistically rated a Grade V but generally done in a day. Although with perfect conditions I have done the climb in 5 hrs while roped to a partner.  Iin early January's short days, in fairly cold conditions it easily lives up to the overall Grade V label.

The brothers Grimm masquerading as "Team Arcteryx LT" for this discussion.... ;-)

This is the list of weights I keep on the blog:

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/04/weights.html


What we used that was the same with slight weight differences noted below

Spantiks
Vertical front point crampons
Atom Lt Hoody
Arcteryx pants
Hoody pile pull over shirts
under shirt
long johns
CCW packs
EB down jackets

What we used that was different:

inner boot 5 oz / 9 oz.
harnesses 10 oz / 12.2 oz.
carabiners 10 @ 10 oz / 10 @ 25 oz
crampons 39 oz / 45 oz
packs 25oz / 38 oz
helmet 8oz / 16oz
water bottles/water 34 oz / 68 oz
hooded/unhooded  down 13.8 oz / 13.2 oz
gloves 7oz gauntlet/ 6.5 oz x 2  with short cuff (13 oz)
pants 19 oz / 17 oz
long johns 6 oz / 6 ox x 2 (13 oz)
________ _______

177 oz  verses  265.8 oz  =  88.8 oz or a ............ 5.5 lbs difference.

What does 5.5# mean to you?

Most of that weight difference is in the actual packs weight  we used (same Cold Cold World basic designs, different material, one stripped, one not ) and the decision on the amount of  extra water carried.   The helmets stand out as well.  Interesting with that the same manufactures helmets, that the heavier hard shell helmet broke when hit by a dinner plate and the lighter, foam core one did not with a similar hit.  We were out 10 hrs total and both of us brought water back to the car.

Low temps were -30C or -22 F at the beginning and end of the climb.

Climbing "cold"?

Here is a retread from last March I find worth repeating.

I spent 12 hrs out yesterday. Not a big deal but recognised a few things I think worth mentioning.

To climb in the most efficient clothing system I think you have to climb what I consider, "cold". You want to run your clothing system at a level of heat that is well short of sweating the majority of time. So you want to be almost a tiny bit chilled a majority of time if you stop moving. And everyone starting off should feel a tiny bit chilled.

Almost the perfect storm for me yesterday. Dehydrated from the day before and little sleep the night before. Too much to get done in real life so I could get away for the day. Sound familiar? Been nursing a bad knee for several a weeks and finally had another MRI done to make sure I wasn't risking bigger injuries and more down time. So I was tired from the chronic knee pain of the last couple of weeks and had been trying to ignore the massive doses of Ibuprofen which is what I needed to get healed up.

At the trail head there was a huge temperature inversion that we didn't recognize in the predawn start. We had gained 5000' and it was cold. Seemed reasonable.

So I bundled up. With all the wrong things happening in the last 48 hrs I didn't want to be cold and uncomfortable. Being tired, dehydrated and edgy from the knee pain I just didn't tolerate the cold well that morning. It should have been an alarm bell.

Couple of hrs later we were well out of the temperature inversion. It was above freezing now and we were in the sun. I was over heated, sweating and stripping clothes as we climbed higher in the glacier basin. 1/2 way into the walk I noticed 3/4 of my day's water bottle was already gone. That was a little shocking as I generally pay careful attention to how I go through my water. That was my first alarm bell to just how out of it I really was.

What I had brought for water would have just barely been enough if everything went perfectly and we summited in 4 maybe 5 hours. I'd be dehydrated but could easily suck it up till we got back to the car.

Then the final straw was it took a full 6 hrs of trail breaking just to get to our 1500' climb. We knew the game was over 3 hrs into the walk but pressed on anyway to at least see what we in such a hurry to get up. Time to make this one a "teachable moment".

Quick bottom line? I over dressed because I wanted to me more comfortable. Unnoticed, I drank my water quickly because I was dehydrated from the previous 24 hrs. I then over heated because I over dressed, carried more than I should have in gear and clothing and not enough water.

So now as I get even more dehydrated, I get cold feet from wet boots I sweated out from being too warm. Then I am getting cold again because I am dehydrated and physically tired and having to add layers I can't easily technical climb in. Things have gone down hill fast in 6hrs. But it all started 56 or 72 hours beforehand I just didn't recognise it.

Truth is I should have stayed home and gotten some rest and re-hydrated and waited a day or so before going out again.. I would have climbed faster and better if I had done so.

My thought is if you are physically incapable of "climbing cold" do yourself a favor and stay home. I let the weather and my desire to spend time with a buddy sway me. We all do it.

The better we can identify what goes wrong and why the easier it is to have a better trip next time.

The Climbing Sweater?

The German-Austrian expedition in the best kit of the day on Nanga Parbat, 1934.

One of the things I have recently realised is there is a big difference between a belay jacket and a bivy jacket designed specifically for climbing. It has only been with in the last couple of seasons that I have actually seen jackets that I consider real belay jackets. The difference to me is a belay jacket is something light enough that you can really climb hard technical ground in after freezing your ass off on a cold belay and NOT get way over heated and "fried" by the end of the pitch.

I still own a bivy jacket. The kind of jacket you would use with a half bag to bivy in ( or bivy in just the jacket) or on Denali for extra warmth with a light bag. But something you'd only climb in on the type of days you really shouldn't be out at all. Windy and cold summit days on Denali or Rainier in winter type of days. I have never used a jacket of that weight any where else.

A belay jacket you'll put on earlier and take off later and then realise you can use it to dry things out as you climb and still not over heat. Your own heat management will be more efficient because of it, if the design and materials are up to the task.

Using my terms, once you start climbing in a true belay jacket, the "bivy" jacket won't see much use. I wouldn't take a jacket that heavy to Denali now. And for many things you might start thinking 1/2 pound of well designed stretchy synthetic insulation might well be be really useful to climb in during some really cold weather...say alpine stuff in Canada's winter.

Kinda a heavy weight hoody (using the benchmark Patagonia R1 Hoody as a reference) with wind protection....more like a belay sweater? To coin a new label.

But really just a climbing specific, sweater.  By definition a very breathable and windproof garment with enough warmth to avoid adding a belay jacket for climbing generally.

I've not seen a garment to match that description till just recently. Although Ueli Steck mentioned a similar garment that he used when soloing the McIntyre/Colton last winter. While a great piece for climbing, Mountain Hardwear's original answer was the "Compressor Hoody". But the commercial version wasn't as light weight as what I was looking for. The Compressor Hoody makes a good outer layer and a great belay jacket, just a little too warm to climb in all the time.

The more I climb the more I go back to clothing ideas that have been used for the last 75 years or more.  The "climbing sweater" is one of them.  If you are trying to get to the bare essentials for weight and warmth hard to beat a thin base layer, a insulated layer, wind shell and finally your last bit of insulation, the belay jacket,  when it is required.

I generally us a R1 hoody or a lwt Merino wool sweater as a base layer but if it is cold enough I'll had a light weight layer of wool or synthetic under that.

The insulated layer for warmth  can be the original soft shell, a simple wool sweater.  Or it might be a boiled wool Dachstein sweater as pictured in the 1934 picture above.

More likely today it will be some sort of pile in the thickness, wind resistance and breath ability you require,  a wind shell combo with pile or a  lightly insulated soft shell.   I've use a similar systems myself until recently.

In the last few years I have almost totally stopped using pile insulation and soft shells in the mtns as an insulation layer.

I am back to using light weight wools sweaters or instead of a heavy wool sweater or pile I have switched to either a down or a synthetic layer that I would consider "sweater" weight.  By the looks of what is available today it seems I am not the only one.

Arcteryx Atom Lt used in cold (-20/-25C) climbing conditions.

As a comparison here is what the weights are of several pieces of clothing I use all the time for winter climbing.  Could be a day ice cragging in Bozeman or a full on winter day in the Icefields's at 10K feet or higher.

Belay sweater, insulated shell or just a sweater, your call and your label.

Arcteryx Squamish pullover XL 5.6oz  (pure wind shell)

Modern technical sweaters:

Patagonia Nano Puff  sweater 1/2 zip  large 11.5oz •60 gm/m² prima loft 1 insulation

Patagonia Nano Puff  Hooded sweater large 13.5oz •60 gm/m² prima loft 1 insulation


Arcteryx Atom LT Hoody large 14.3 oz •60 gm/m² Coreloft™ insulation

Arcteryx Atom Hoody LT XL  15.6 oz •60 gm/m² Coreloft™ insulation

Patagonia Down Sweater Hoody XL 15.6 800 fill

Patagonia Down Sweater XL 14.6 800 fill

EB 1st Ascent  Downlight Sweater XL 14.4 800 down fill

EB 1st Ascent Downlight Hoodie 1/2 zip XL 15.4 800 down fill

light weight insulated jackets as a comparison
Mtn Hardware Compressor Hoody 19.8oz (Primaloft)
Arcteryx Atom hoody SV 19.0oz
Patagonia  micro puff  Hoody 22 oz  (Primaloft)
Arcteryx Gamma MX Hoody XL 24oz (Polartec Power Shield soft shell)

I've been using an Arcteryx Atom LT Sweater now for a couple of seasons.  It is  10oz lighter than a soft shell MX Hoody and more water resistant from my experience.  Big plus is it also breathes better.  This winter simply because of the comfort and warmth of down clothing I have started using the Eddie Bauer Downlight series of sweaters and the Patagonia Hooded Down Sweater.   The use of down insulated clothing while ice and alpine climbing as base layers is clearly questionable.  And generally they are not very durable.

Some quick photos to see the sweaters used in combos.  Below: Here in -20C temps, no wind, with a Atom LT and a Compressor Hoody used at a belay stance.

Below: Colin Haley using the Patagonia Nano high on Denali while soloing the Cassin.
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html

Below:Atom LT again in -20 temps and windy conditions.  Atom Lt over a R1 Hoody and a  Arcteryx Squamish pullover.  Just enough insulation if I kept moving.

Below: Same set up again but climbing slowly and cold shaded belays.  Perfect combo with the hood down for the temps which were around -10C.

Below: R1 Hoody here with a Polartec Power Shield Arcteryx Gamma MX Hoody, temps again a balmy -10/-15C with the hoods going up and down as I climbed.  No question the Gamma MX is the most durable of the "sweaters" under discussion.   It also weights in at 10oz more.

Below: This a combo for really cold weather (-15/-20C) I used for climbing a couple of years ago. On top of a R1 hoody again is  a med weight hooded  pile pull over jacket, and a Patagonia "Puff" pullover over that.  What I am using now is as warm but again half the weight.  By the time I retired my Puff  it was mostly held together by duct tape.  Warm, but not all that durable.

I would never recommend any of these sweaters in a down version for serious climbing.  Although I have to say I am using mine there on more and more occasions knowing full well just how worthless they are when wet from the environment or just as likely from perspiration while working hard.  Poking holes in a synthetic  sweater is bad enough.  Even worse with down gear.  It will happen if you are using them for ice or alpine.  Plan ahead. 

A synthetic belay jacket can dry a down sweater out pretty quickly with body heat alone but it still a huge hassle.   Best to know what will work or won't for your own use/project before getting into these too deep..

Besides Patagonia and Eddie Bauer, Mtn Hardware, Rab and Arcteryx are making similar products made with down or synthetic insulation.

If nothing else the "sweater" in any insulation material is another option you'll want to be fully aware of in your winter clothing system.

The following are comparison pictures and comments of the current sweaters I am using.  Most of it relates to the down versions with a few comments and pictures for the Arcteryz Atom LT.

 


Above: Blue jacket in this picture is the Patagonia Down Hoody,  the gold Jacket a Eddie Bauer Downlight Sweater.  Cuffs are virtually the same.

Above:  Again Pata and EB..pocket comparisons.  Same/same.

Above:  First major difference.  Both down versions are simple sewn through baffles. The Patagonia version (red) has a full front lining that adds some warmth and wind proofness.  The EB front lining (tan) only covers the lower torso behind the pockets.

 Above: Another small difference is the Patagonia version has a draw string at the waist.  EB version elastic only.

Above: Sewing quality is same/same form what I can see.

 Above: Patagonia's hooded version in blue.

 Above: Eddie Bauer's sweater collar in gold.

Above:  Eddie Bauer's Hooded version in a dark blue.

Above:  Arcteryx's Atom LT hood in lt blue with a red zipper pull.

 Above: Atom LT's (in blue) •Polartec® Power Stretch® with Hardface® Technology in the
stretch side panel vents in the side of the jacket.  High tech climbing gear here imo.  I really like it for my own use.  It is a bit of technology that can be down right nippy in a cold wind though.   The Atom SV is a very similar jacket but warmer and heavier with 100g fill (instead of 60g)  without the very breathable stretch side panels.  But it is very breathable in the under arm area with less insulation there.  More of a full blown jacket than  sweater though.   It is a bit warmer than the Atom LT but doesn't breath as well because of it.    Look for a update and comparison on the Atom SV and Atom LT in the near future.

Above:  Cuffs, L to R, from the EB, Pata, Arcteryx.  Again the Atom LT does it a bit better imo.

Above:  For those that wonder...between Patagonia and Eddie Bauer..800 fill down.  It is the good stuff.  Virtually the same weight jackets but the Eddie Bauer jackets show a lot more loft when measured side by side...almost twice the loft.  Which at best is still only 2 inches!   Patagonia Nano much less.  EB has 25% more down fill in any size sweater.  3oz for Patagonia to 4oz in the Eddie Bauer in a medium size men's.


 
Above:  The baffles size on the Patagonia garment are also smaller, so more sewn through seams and over all less insulation because of it.  Patagonia really needs that full front lining to be in the same category for warmth as the Eddie Bauer versions.

Finally, while I like the pull overs and they are very warm for their weight it limits their use a bit.  For example I use any insulation over my light weight sleeping bags when required.  I generally try not to sleep in every piece of clothing I own because it gets to confining.  A full zip sweater can add some insulation over the top of my bag.   While a pull over sweater can be used in the same manner it is much less likely to stay in place.

All of these patterns are very simple and easy to reconfigure.  If anyone at Eddie Bauer is listening...I'd like a full zip hoodie asap !

Retail on the Patagonia Down Hoodie is $250

Retail on the Patagonia Down Sweater is $200.

Retail on the Eddie Bauer Downlight Hoody is $189

Retail on the Eddie Bauer Downlight Sweater is $169

Sale prices?  Patagonia is difficult to find on sale.

Eddie Bauer is almost easy to buy at a factory story discount. 

http://blog.firstascent.com/2010/12/25/update-from-dave-morton-in-k2-base-camp-part-6/

-30 and snowing.. less than 16oz.....Jan 2011