Why the weight of your footwear is important?

My apologies for not first putting the previous post on a 3# boot/crampon combo into context. The study cited below is worth a look if you find this subject interesting. The first quote is from this web page:

http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/clothing.html

I have only looked at the boot weight info on that web page because it is old info I wanted to share and have not read the rest of the page so as always "buyer beware".

"Keep in mind that for every 1 lb of footwear, it's like carrying an extra 6.4 lb of weight on your back." [Authors: S. J. Legg a; A. Mahanty - This study was conducted in part fulfilment of an MSc in Human and Applied Physiology, London University 1982. Published in: Ergonomics, Volume 29, Issue 3 March 1986 , pages 433 - 438]

'Ergonomics' is a widely distributed journal, owned by 616 libraries in US and CAN, according to the WorldCAT. Many research universities have it available. 'Ergonomics' is published by the Ergonomics Research Society. They do government funded, peer reviewed, research worldwide, on fatigue, industrial and medical ergonomics, flight simulators, body armor, etc.


"Shoe Weight, runners 28oz, boots 70oz (my Trango extremes are just over 32oz per boot or 64oz)
Equiv. work for this Weight on you back, runners=11.2 lbs, boots=28 lbs"

I found from guiding that most folks are hard pressed to carry 25% of their body weight day in and day out. That means a 200# man gets 50 lbs in their pack. A 120 # woman 30 lbs in hers. Plus what ever they are wearing. If you want to stay healthy get under that number. Try doing hard technical climbing and it is even less. 20% for a "big" load or 40# for a 200lb man.

Sure you can carry more but you'll pay for it one way or the other.

A typical dbl boot and technical crampon in my size will be around 12 lbs on your feet per pair or 76 lbs on your back. Now you can see why I want to cut my boot weight to 6lb for the pair or what adds up to 38 lbs.

But as John implied in the previous post's comments if the crampon and boot combo you chose doesn't make your climbing easier you should look for a better combo and stop worrying about the weight.

As much as I like them I no longer climb in Dartwins because I found them too unstable on easy terrain. The weight drop of the "sport" style crampon is not worth the extra effort required for me to use them no matter how light they are.

So I work at getting my boot/crampon combo as light as possible. But I also work at getting all my gear as light as possible. I will not sacrifice weight for performance. Durability? Sure, depending on the economics involved sort out. 5 extra .oz on your feet is worth a full 2 lbs on your back. Think about what 2 lbs is worth in your pack?


I could loose extra body weight by the pound and worry less about the weight of my gear. But there are climbers out there who have no extra body weigh to loose. Those are the climbers who can best take advantage of lwt gear.

Or as a couple of my buddies like tell me when I start fixating on gear weights, "Just train harder and it won't matter." But in reality everything matters.

Same reason we train, watch our diet and buy the best gear possible. It is all in the details and it all matters.

3 lbs?

3 lb 4 oz per foot, Scarpa boot and Black Diamond crampon combo, in a size 45.


Not a dbl boot but more than a single boot.
Not a full steel crampon but at least the front half is.
Not 3 lbs but we are getting closer.

3lb 9 oz is the steel crampon, true double boot, gold standard in a size 45. Sadly that is a 1980's Kolfach Ultra, Evolite liner, strap-on steel, hinged Chouinards.


Spantik, Baruntse liner, Stripped Sabertooth with a aluminum Neve heel, Petzl front bail, size 45. 3lb 10oz. Make it an all steel Sabertooth with your custom Spantik and you have a 4# combo per foot. A 6# combo with a stock set of Cyborgs.
6lb 4oz with factory Spantiks and Cyborgs.

Only a 1/2 lb per foot to go.
Why does this have to so hard?
Is anyone paying attention?

Nomic Hammers?

Blatant commercial spiel here..so be warned.

This is something I have been doing commercially but generally under the radar for the last 3 years all the while trying to get Petzl to do it themselves. The new Nomic will offer a hammer as an option.

I'll also be making this hammer as a retro fit for all the newest tools and the new picks this coming winter. But no reason to sell your old Nomic. Most of the newest features can be upgraded into your current Nomic including the better umbilical attachment point and hammer.

First experience with the new lower grip pommel is it will also retro fit with a little effort.

This hammer is lighter and better balanced than Petzl's new hammer for the Nomic. I cut new factory picks to fit my hammer. Spare picks for these hammers can also be easily made from the older style (pre winter of '10/'11) Quark picks and a few minutes on a grinder. Nomic pick weights are 62grams. The CT hammer is 34grams. The Petzl Nomic hammer is 65g.

La Sportiva Baruntse revisted

With the volcano in Iceland nixing my plans to climb in Chamonix earlier this spring I had some time and money on my hands and no place I really wanted to go. That is a dangerous combination!

Daniel Harro's email last month and pictures of the work done on his Spantiks got me thinking.

The Baruntse gives my foot a great fit and offers a full length, rigid, nylon midsole so it front points very well. I like the support, lacing and cuff better for my foot than the Spantik. The over all warmth of both boots I suspect is very comparable with similar upper design and materials.







The obvious advantages of the Spantik is it has a foam midsole for extra warmth on top of a carbon fiber midsole used to cut weight and add rigidity. The other thing Sportiva used in the Spantik design is a very thin Vibram sole to also lower the weight.

After seeing what cobbler Dave Page of Seattle did to Daniel's Spantiks by adding a Nepal midsole and big block Vibram sole it got me thinking. Wrong direction for Daniel's Spantik imo by adding the weight of a Nepal sole/mid sole and duplicating the Baruntse combination, but how about going the other way and dropping a few ounces?

I took my Baruntses down to Dave Page's one afternoon and described what I wanted. Dave pulled out a couple of different Vibram sole options. I had brought along a accurate electronic scale to see if the weights "added up". And sure enough, it looked like a resole with the "proper" La Sportiva Vibram would drop 4oz per boot and add more insulation under foot while doing it. ( I didn't think the added insulation was needed but..if it goes with a weight drop why not?)

I ended up with a Baruntse that weights in at 2# 15.5oz compared to the factory Spantik at 3#.05oz. A total of 1.5 oz difference. Spantik has a 26mm mid sole at the ball of the foot and my lwt Baruntse has a 25mm midsole thickness in the same place.

Original La Sportiva factory, size 45, weights:

Spantik 3# .o5oz
Baruntse 3# 2.50oz

semi custom boot weights:

Spantik with a Baruntse liner 2# 13.5oz
Baruntse w/inner and lwt sole 2# 15.5oz

I ended up dropping only 3oz per boot but I did gain some sole insulation as well. The new lug pattern has a sold toe areas and will be better for pure rock climbing. Certainly more cushion in the boot now, both in the sole sole and heel. Down side? The Vibram soles are thinner so they won't last as long on hard surfaces. Same durability issue on a Spantik as well. But the Baruntse has more surface area being used on the newer sole.

.

Factory Baruntse and a Trangpo Extreme GTX in size 45



I like climbing technical ground in the Baruntse better than in the Spantik so it is a win/win for me. And even with the resole I am still almost $200 under the Spantik retail. Would I do it again? Cost was $78.00 for the resole. No real reason to do it other than curiosity on my part to see what kind of weight loss I would come up with. But if I wanted to take the Baruntse on a cold, technical Denali route, I would do it again in a heart beat. No question it is less weight and a warmer boot now. Warm enough to leave the over boots at home above 17K.....may be :)

This is an modification that would cost La Sportiva nothing in production and it would offer us one more option for dbl boots.

Factory sole..

Baruntse with a lwt, La Sportiva factory resole added.

Real weight?

Some times even I wonder just how important tracking you gear weights really is.

If you wonder as well take a quick look at what I used on Polar Circus in '08 and what I used on the same climb in similar conditions in '09, '10  and  '11.

pack-CCW in ballistics nylon 2#6oz
boots-Nepal Evo 2#10.5oz
screws-12 -12cm Helix 60.7oz
belay parka-Mtn Hardware Compressor Hoody 19.8oz
soft shell-Arcteryx Gamma MX Hoody XL 24oz
pants-Arcteryx soft shell Bib large 30.3oz
helmet-Grivel Salamander 13.7oz
crampons-Grivel G12 full bot 35.6oz

total weight in 2008 16.5#

pack-CCW Ozone, custom, 20" back, Spectra 1#9oz no lid
boots-Trango Evo Extreme GTX 2#3oz
screws-8 -12cm Helix 40.8oz
no belay parka
hard/soft shell-EB Frontpoint XL 18.5oz
pants-Gamma Lt large 12oz
helmet-Petzl Meteor III 7.9oz
Dartwin 1/2 bot 30.5oz

Total weight in 2009 10.6#

How does that relate to effort in the real world? In '08 we climbed the route as fast as I ever have with a partner. In '09, with more comfort and significantly less effort than I have ever used on the climb and not actually trying to climb any faster than normal we almost cut that time in half! And in very similar conditions.


Even better I didn't add the weight savings of my gloves, harness, 'biners or inner layers all of which added up quickly as well for an additional significant weight savings. So my take is; it really is worth paying attention to what you buy and carry.


It is always a learning experience. The system I last used in warm conditions?

pack-REI Flash 18L 9.2oz -
boots-Scarpa Phantom Ultra 2#3.5oz +
screws-8-13cm BD Express 38.4oz -
Arcteryx Squawmish XL 5.6oz -
pants-Gamma Lt large 12oz =
helmet-Petzl Meteor III 7.9oz =
Stainess Sabertooth stripped/Neve heel 25.4oz -

Total weight 8.2#

And what I used in -30C temps early last winter?

CCW packs 1# 9oz

Spantiks 3#.05oz / 1362g

screws-12 -12cm Helix 60.7oz

Atom Lt Hoody 14.4oz / 429g

NWAlpine Salopettes 21.6oz / 612g

helmet-Petzl Meteor III 7.9oz =

Vertical front point crampons 39.4oz / 1116g

EB down pull over 15.4 oz / 455g


14.5#






Close ups of the upper tiers on Polar Circus.

The Dream? The Adventure!

I don't know what climbing, specifically alpine climbing, means to anyone including myself. I can no more tell you why climbing is so important and good for me than I can tell you how the universe was created or what "life" is.


But I know it started as a dream, a wish for adventure and a ability to comprehend what I saw in nature as something more than just special.

No matter what I climb, the type of terrain or how much I enjoy the moment it is all related to being in the mountains eventually and alpine climbing.

I get teased sometimes about my obvious boot fetish. Couple of things happened recently to bring me back to the original "dream", cold feet and why my desire of wanting to climb so badly.

The boot fetish is based on the reality of spending a lot of time out doors as a young kid. My parents hunted, fished and skied. Of course all that slowed down when they had kids..at least until we (the kids) could walk. And by walking I don't think we had to be able to walk far before we were off on their adventures. From my childhood I remember three things from those adventures, cold feet, how I liked heights when everyone else got scared and how much fun it was to be in the snow.

So the boot fetish should be easy to understand. I had cold feet from day one!

In the late 1950's the lookout shown above was the first place I remember seeing, and others talking about, climbing. I can remember my Dad walking with me out to the lookout and back hand in hand on that set of stairs. I was in the 2nd grade. Imagine my surprise to find out the Needles had its, "first recorded technical climbing is April 1970, Fred Beckey, Dan McHale, Mike Heath climbed the South Face of the Warlock, an 8 pitch climb rated 5.9." That ascent is of course a a full ten years after me seeing climbers in the Needles.

The view of the Needles from the lookout.


That was 50 years ago and I still get a thrill remembering the journey. It was another 10 years before I was to actually climb. But not because of a lack of desire. As I aged I remembered the thrill of that simple visit to the Lookout and the awe I had for the guys climbing on the rocks.

Learning to ski held my attention as did dirt bikes, basketball, football, bicycles, guns, knives and swimming. In the late '60s and early '70s our high school library carried a French magazine called "Paris Match" and even though I was taking French I couldn't read much of it. But, my Oh my, the pictures! Rene Desmaison made me WANT to be a alpine climber. Add a subscription to National Geographic my Grandmother gave at Chrismas every year since I was born (really, since I was born) and how could I not WANT to climb :)


" Readers of Paris Match read his dramatic reports and a radio audience measured in millions shivered with him during a live broadcast caught in a storm on the north face of the Grandes Jorasses......

In the 1960s when many of the so-called “last great problems” in the Alps were being addressed, Desmaison played a leading part in solving them. One attempt on the unclimbed Central Pillar of Freney, high on the Brenva face of Mont Blanc, became a France v Britain race. A team including Chris Bonington, Ian Clough and Don Whillans had a day's lead and were attempting the difficult overhanging crux of the climb when a group led by Desmaison appeared, attempting the same pillar by a nearby line. Bonington recalled that the corner crack they were trying to climb was too wide for their pitons but too small for the protective wooden wedges they were carrying. A request to the French for suitable gear met a firm and not unreasonable “non”, as the same gear was needed on their own route. Bonington and Whillans persevered, overcame the crux and dropped a rope to the rest of their team which the French then asked to use to ascend the difficult pitches. The rope was left, but seemingly failed to find a mention in French accounts of the climb.

Desmaison's closest brush with death came in the winter of 1971 attempting a new route on the Grandes Jorasses. With Serge Gousseault, a newly qualified Chamonix guide, the two climbers became trapped by violent storms sweeping the mountain face. After six days of slow, difficult climbing the weather had closed in. They reached a summit cornice, an overhanging lip of snow and ice, only a short distance from safety but were unable to move, hanging from pitons in a festoon of ropes. Rescue helicopters twice arrived above them but failed to understand Desmaison's signals for help. On the 12th day Gousseault froze to death and it was two days later that Desmaison, near death himself from cold and dehydration, was air- lifted to safety. Two years later he returned and completed the climb, once more arriving on the summit in a storm. "
René Desmaison, French mountaineer, guide, author and film-maker, was born on April 14, 1930. He died on September 28, 2007, aged 77

So between Desmaison and Gaston Rebuffat, another French Alpinist with a penchant for photography, writing and good climbs I was hooked long before I ever owned an ice axe.

Skiing, when I started, most still used leather boots. And the boots could be used for walking as required as well as skiing. Not cutting edge technology by any means even then but a whole lot of fun. Not a lot of difference between skiers and climbers then from my limited perspective.

Then while in high school our family moved to a little town just east of Mt. Adams. From our new home you could see Mt Hood, Mt Adams, St Helens, and of course Mt Rainier!

Now I just had to learn how to climb mountains! Of course I had no clue just how much mountains and climbing would come to influence the rest of my life.

A duplicate of my first "climbing" boots, age 14. Army surplus, alpine troop, ski and mtn boot. Bought in Lewiston Idaho with paper route money shortly before seeing Mt. Hood up close for the first time.

That was my start. Yours?

Scarpa Phantom Guide vs the La Sportiva Batura

New:  2/15/2011...here is an update on the newest 2011 Batura worth looking at, as the Batura has some significant changes for the better.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011/02/new-2011-la-sportiva-batura_14.html

As always a caveat. My foot isn't your foot. Some will find the Batura a much better boot for them than the Guide. And some will find the Guide a better fit and boot for them than the Batura. I really like and believe in the potential of a "super gator" style boot for cold weather climbing. I don't think of either of these boots as being perfect. Despite both companies best effort to date either boot is too heavy for their warmth imo.

The La Sportiva Batura in my size 45 weights in at 2lb 7oz per boot. The Scarpa Phantom Guide in a size 45 weighs in at 2lb 7.5oz. Both should be closer to the 2lb they advertise.

As a comparison in size 45 both the La Sportiva Trango Exteme Evo GTX and the Nepal Evo GTX offer similar warmth while admittedly differing levels of protection. The Trango weight in at 2# 3oz, the all leather Nepal Evo at 2# 10oz.






I have intentionally updated the previous La Sportiva Batura review to put it on the same page as this review and the comparison of the Batura along side the newest Scarpa Phantom Guide.

In many ways these two boots are very old school. Basically light weight single boots with a short, Peter Carmen style "super gator" permanently attached as noted in the Batura review. It was a system that allowed us to use a lighter weight boot that climbed better technically and still have enough warmth to use the system in Alaska during the spring if you didn't go too high and winter in Canada if it didn't get too cold.

Lots of "ifs" in that statement but it worked without cold injuries, generally. Still there are places cold enough that a single boot just is not enough and enough cases of frostbite from those using Super Gators and good single boots on cold, difficult routes many quickly realised double boots were a better answer. Lucky for us Koflach came out with the Ultras about that time and then dominated the market for cold weather technical climbing for the next 20 years.

The flip side to that is both the Phantom guide and the Batura are chock full of high tech materials and technology.

But let me address a couple of things first that should be mentioned about fabric boots (both the Scarpa and La Sportive here are "fabric" boots) that are important.

"Mountain Guide and Scarpa consultant, Brian Hall emphasises that the Phantoms won't last as long as traditional leather and plastic mountaineering boots, but the sort of climber who uses them is after maximum performance regardless of cost..."

Nice of Mr. Hall and Scarpa to so easily admit that fact. La Sportiva on the other hand doesn't bother to mention it at all. No matter just how true it REALLY is. The majority of time I have spent in boots over the last 10 years has been in fabric boots. The exceptions have been the newest Nepal Evo and the older, blue Scarpa Frenzy. Both fully rigid soled, leather boots and both build stout for technical climbing and to last.

It would take me multiple years to wear either leather boot out and you would go through several resoles before you did.

Admittedly I have a hard foot to fit and am rough on boots because I have skinny feet in a size 12 US and weight in at 200# on a good day. Add a pack and gear to that and easy to be pushing 225# plus while climbing when all geared up.

There are times I prefer some extra ankle and forward support to ease the calf strain of the leverage on a big foot and my climbing weight. I've not found a technical, all fabric boot that will do that yet, short of the very best dbl boots, like the Phantom 6000, the Baruntse or Spantik.

And the kind of support and warmth a double boot offers isn't always needed let alone desired.

In Chamonix the previous versions of the Scarpa Phantom 6000 and the Phantom Light had the enviable reputation of being extremely durable compared to the Batura (which broke zippers and had wear issues on the fabric) or the Spantik (which broke laces and eyelets.




The La Sportiva all fabric Trango series of boots have lots of complaints on sole wear and fabric durability. All complaints I originally chose to ignore. While I love the original sticky soles of the Trango Evo series, the durability and support of the Trango is dismal even after just a little use. I basically wore a pair of Trango Extreme Evo GTX boots out in 3 months of ice climbing on just the weekends! That is CRAZY and expensive!

So while I am willing to put up with a reputation that matches "the sort of climber who uses them is after maximum performance regardless of cost" I am not willing to buy a new pair of boots every 6 to 9 months no matter how high the performance.

If you want a boot to last from today's choices, buy a leather boot. The Nepal Evo and the Scarpa Mt. Blanc are exceptional, lwt, technical leather boots. If you don't want to buy new boots every year I'd strongly suggest buying leather.

I feel the Super Gator/single boot idea is worthy of support. Most of my hard climbing has been done in one form or another of that combination up to and including the Batura the last couple of winters.

The original Scarpa Phantom Light, Scarpa's previous model to the Phantom Guide.

So let me get into the Batura / Guide comparison so you can see what I think are the real differences are.

The Batura has lots of things going for it and some faults as well to fit me correctly. And I really do wish the Batura did fit me correctly.

Batura's faults for my foot and fit:

Loose ankle cuff that doesn't tighten on my skinny ankles.
Not enough padding or width in the boot tongue for comfort or support
Hard to lace lower
Not enough lacing on the upper cuff and what is there is poorly placed and designed
Poor seal on the gaiter
Not enough support side to side and forward on the cuff
Terrible, super soft ankle flex, with almost zero support
Hard to keep dry inside and hard to dry out

An additional lower boot eyelet at the ankle and a third set of upper cuff lace hooks make the Phantom Guide different from the Batura. With the addition of a more substantial and well padded tongue all combine to offer more support in the ankle with no loss in flexibility.

The excellent sewn on gaiters of both boots are virtually the same height when snugged as they generally would be in use.

The lower lace system on the Phantom Guide also offers a lace "pull" that greatly increases the ability to tighten and just as importantly, untighten, the lower boot in use.

The Phantom Guide allows me to make my crampons one click smaller for size but mandate the use of a asymmetrical center bar for a proper fit.

The advantages of either boot?


Short integral gaiter.
More water resistance and warmth that a typical leather/fabric boot because of the full coverage gaiter
Flexible cuffs that allow for easy walking and good flexibility to rock or mix climb
Rigid soles for full clip-on crampons
Warm enough for all but the coldest temps



In my size 45 the insole is slightly longer on the Phantom Guide while the over all volume is slightly less on the outside than the Batura. The Phantom Guide is a more trim, lower volume boot and closer fitting boot than the Batura on my foot which makes rock and hard mixed easier.
The issues the Phantom guide solves for my foot.

ankle cuff will tighten on my skinny ankles.
Good padding and width in the boot tongue for comfort or support
easily lacing lower
upper and lower boot have enough eyelets for a proper fit
Good seal on the gaiter
Good support and progressive flex on the ankle

Goretex and Primaloft 1 should help keep the boot dry and help dry the boot once wet

One of the down sides to the Batura is the insulation inside the boot gets wet in use from sweat. And more importantly the Batura then becomes extremely hard to dry out in the field. The P-Guide on the other hand has a removable Primaloft 1 inner sole and the boot is also insulated with Primaloft 1. From my other experiences with Primaloft I know it dries faster with body heat than any other insulation I have used. Primaloft 1's insulation value and warmth is way out of proportion to the thickness used. Add to that a Goretex liner in the Scarpa P-Guide. Both Primaloft and Goretex should offer distinct advantages of the Scarpa over the La Sportiva in staying dry both from your body's moisture and the outside elements.













I've yet to had the opportunity to use this boot in very cold weather but I would expect the P-Guide to be a warmer boot than the Batura. Not a lot warmer mind you, but warmer and certainly easier to dry out in the field.


Easier to get in and out of the P-Guide and the laces lock my heels in much better. In general the S-Guide just fits me better over all. There isn't a lot more support in the ankle on the S-Guide than the Batura but what is there is noticeable and more comfortable for me. Certainly a lot less heel lift on the S-Guide no matter how you chose to tie the boot compared to the Batura.

I am still trying to wrap my head around how comfortable it is to walk in both these boots. Much of alpine climbing is spent on the approach. So walking is important. Although I will generally give up that comfort for the support of a heavier boot. This winter I used a La Sportiva Trango Evo Extreme on a number of long approaches and water fall climbs including no approach but some good ice on a quick ascent of Polar Circus.


















Because of the ridiculiously easy ease of access I use ascents of Polar Circus a a testing ground for a lot of gear. Never thought I would enjoy a really light weight set of boots on a climb of that length. But there is enough walking to take advantage of a boot like the Trango, Batura or Phantom Guide. The longest stretch of front pointing is easy terrain on the approach pitches. You never climb more than 100m of steep ice in one session before getting a ledge or snow again up higher.


So for climbs like that or road side cragging on things like Curtain Call, Nemesis or even Slipstream I think any of these soft and lwt fabric boots are great. Just pray you don't have to spend a cold, unplanned night out in them. Because without some serious preventive measures most will have wet feet at the end of a long day in these boots. The full gaiter covering these boots keeps them drier and warmer for longer days walking and climbing but I'll repeat myself, they are not a replacement for a dbl boot. If they were only more durable they might well be good as summer alpine ice boots. Hopefully I'll be able to give a follow up on how the Phantom Guide holds up in those conditions.




















Thankfully both Scarpa and now La Sportiva are using the T-ZIP for better water resistance on the gaiter and better durability. Scarpa has long used the T-ZIP on their previous generations of Phantom boots and have an enviable reputation.

La Sportiva's Batura

Sportiva's Batura came on the market 3 seasons ago. In some ways it is an old answer to an old question. But now seemingly a new technology for the alpine climber.

In the 1970's Peter Carman in Jackson Hole came up with a new way to make single boots warmer, the "Super Gator". Great Pacific Iron Works (a combo company of what was or would be Chouinard Equipment and Patagonia) eventually sold the Super Gator on a broader scale.







So adding a short "Super Gator" to a single boot is not a new idea. Making it a integral part of the boot is fairly new. Scarpa's Phantom Lite Series of Boots and the Kayland 6000 are other boots using similar technology. One of the biggest advantages to a Super Gator on the old leather boots is you had some serious weather protection but that the protection also allowed your boots to breath. For the most part you could keep your leather boots dry and warm in some pretty nasty weather. The other advantage is that you gained an additional layer of insulation on your lower legs helping to keep your feet warm.

The La Sportive Batura and similar boots like it are generally a fabric layered single boot underneath a bit of insulation and a water resistant or in some cases water proof outer shell. With the Batura I find that the boot does not breath well enough to warrant its use on multi day cold weather trips. It is certainly warm enough for use in the Canadian Rockies in winter but my feet get wet from perspiration and then the boots get damp. They just don't breath well for me. I have taken to adding a good amount of Mitchum's anti-perspirant to keep my sox and feet more dry. A VBL sox would be a better answer. The real problem on over night trips in cold weather is the boots get wet and they are just too hard to get dried out on a multi day trip. Like impossible if you need to keep moving of a couple of days. It becomes a perfect situation to get cold injury.

The Batura was designed to be a cold weather technical boot.





La Sportiva sez:
BATURA
The ultimate mountain boot for high elevation alpinism, winter mountaineering and ice climbing

This six layer synthetic boot has an integrated highly water resistant gaiter that opens with a Riri Storm® zipper for excellent water resistant warmth. The inner boot uses thermally expanded PE foam and a polyamide layer for warmth. The shock absorbing PU midsole makes these boots comfortable on long approaches and the 8-9mm TPU midsole stiffener accepts automatic crampons.

WEIGHT: 34.67 oz • 983 g LAST: Nepal CONSTRUCTION: Board Lasted GAITER: Elastic Cordura/ Schoeller® -Dynamic™ with water repellant membrane/ Vibram® rubber rand/ Elastic nylon with impermeable insulating layer/ Riri Storm® zipper UPPER: High tenacity nylon/ Insulated anti-dragging felt/ Insulated PE/ Insulating aluminum layer LINING: Polyamide Thermic layer/ Mesh INSOLE: Insulating Ibi-Thermo 9mm MIDSOLE: 8-9mm TPU/ PU Inserts/ SBR Aircushion SOLE: 8-9mm TPU/ PU Inserts/ SBR Aircushion


Here is what I know of the Batura from my own use over 3 seasons and not all of it is good. Let me make some comparisons to the other Sportiva boots I currently climb in. All to be reviewed at some point in the future. (Trango Extreme GTX Evo, Nepal Evo, Ice Evo, Prime, Batura, Spantik, Baruntse)

The Batura is the softest cuffed boot in the line imo. I have a 11.5 size foot and there is virtually no ankle support in the Batura. Even the Trango Evo Extreme offers marginally better ankle support. And that tiny bit of extra support makes a difference in my calves on steep endurance ice or moderate alpine ice. I start looking for any place to get off your calves and French technique with a soft ankle boot. The Batura is warm enough, but not a lot, if any warmer than the superb Nepal Evo. Only the gator adds enough protection to put the Batura in the same category for warmth as the Nepal Evo. Covered laces on the Batura keeps the boot clean of snow and that helps add some warmth a bit as well.

The ankle support is marginal for ice climbing imo. (this is boot size specific I think) The same soft ankle makes modern mixed really fun though. A board stiff sole with a bit of rocker makes walking just OK. I use the boot specifically for both long approaches, and good mixed routes here in the Cascades and on long, one day, Canadian alpine climbs. But even walking I find the rigid mid sole and cheap, lwt insole extremely uncomfortable with my feet cramping by the end of the day walking out from climbs.

The two eyelets that lace the upper cuff are marginal at best for heel hold down and the cuff is cut so big that I am forced to use the Velcro Nepal Evo tongue liner to get the ankle tight enough to offer what little support that is there. Admittedly l have the second skinniest ankles in world. 1st place would likely go to a 6 year old girl. But it would be close. I would have preferred three sets of lace hooks on the upper cuff and a stiffer material to make the cuff more rigid as well. And if we are going there how about just making the upper more supportive?

Better yet how about a Nepal Evo version of the "Batura"?
Then a lot of us could stop wishing.

I have not had any durability issues with the zipper or the gator. But others have. That was recently changed by using a new and better zipper that is water proof and black in color. It is an inline change for the better. I love the Batura's last which is the main reason i ma still using this boot. The last feels like it has a big toe box area. So you have room to spread and wiggle your toes to keep up the circulation on cold belays. Best of the bunch between Trango and Nepal.

I have friends that climb way more every winter than I do and simply loves this boot for everything. They generally have size 9 and under feet. The smaller the feet the more the owners seem to like the boot. Others have found the multi day "wet boot" issue disappointing and the broken zippers and ripped gator unacceptable. But the idea is sound. Scarpa has the enviable reputation of a more durable boot. Many of the original La Sportive Batura users have simple changed brands. I have yet to see any real complaints on the Phantoms. And now Scarpa has a two new Phantoms upping the game one more time.

Bottom line?

Even with the lack of ankle support and comfort on long hikes for a stiff soled technical boot the Batura is my go to boot for the long day trips in the Cascades. I like not having to worry about a gaiter, they climb hard mixed really well, steep ice reasonably so and they are certainly warm enough for the first 36 hrs as long as they are always on your feet. Easiest boot to walk in I own.
Just buy a better insole than what they ship with.

Would I buy another pair? Maybe. But I'll be looking at Scarpa Phantom Guide first.
Too bad as the Batura with a better, more supportive upper and now the better TIZIP water proof and more durable zipper it could be one of the best, single, alpine ice boots available.

65 degree alpine snice on Pinapple Express, Cascades early Jan '09. And me looking for some calf relief!

BD tests/warning on Umbilicals

Worth a look for all the guys new to the limitations of umbilicals.





More here:

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/blog/index/view/slug/qc-lab-how-strong-is-the-spinner-leash


Thursday, February 4, 2010 - posted by BD crew:


QC Lab: How strong is the Spinner Leash?

I don't usually write-up BD product specific tests and results, but I've just been getting so many of a similar type question on the Spinner Leash lately, that I felt I needed to. And to be honest, these questions are kinda freaking me out.

"I just bought the Spinner Leash, How strong is it?"
"Is the Spinner Leash strong enough for it to hold me if I get too
pumped?"
"Will the Spinner Leash hold a fall if I whip onto it?"
"I want to make my own ice climbing tether system, how strong do I need to
make it?"
"Is the BD Spinner Leash stronger than the Grivel Double Spring Leash?"

Why do these sort of questions freak me out? Because it shouldn't matter how strong these things are. Sure they're rated to 2kN—like most tethers—and you can hang on them if you wanted or needed to, but you must remember that the leash is only as good as the placement of the ice tool it's attached to. Think of bounce testing a Pecker with a daisy chain. If the Pecker blows, you have it zinging towards you—same as if you decide to weight your tools via your Spinner Leash, except the tool is further out of your reach and has way more mass, and now it has the potential to slingshot towards your head. Ouch.




Ultimately the real purpose of these leashes is to stop your tool from falling into oblivion should you drop it on a long ice or alpine route. They're not really designed as something that you should sit on if you get too pumped mid-pitch (they are too long, and then you will have to climb back up to the tools), and they're definitely not intended as a "just in case"
if you were to whip, or used as a personal anchor system at a belay. I could compare this potential misunderstanding of usage of a Spinner Leash similar to the common misunderstanding and mis-uses of a daisy chain. I've seen folks using daisy chains incorrectly when aid climbing (e.g., you should never use a daisy chain such that there is even a possibility of taking a fall directly ONTO it). And I've seen tons of folks at the cliffs
using daisy chains as personal anchor systems—do you know the pocket strength on most daisy chains is ~ 500 lbs, a load easily generated with a slip, small fall and jolt onto the anchor? Daisy chains aren't designed for that kind of loading scenario—and neither are Spinner Leashes.




Bottom Line
The Spinner Leash and most new-school leash/tethering systems are intended to stop your tool from falling, NOT intended to stop YOU from falling.

I apologize for the soap-box-type speak, but just wanted to spread the word about the tether systems and the fact that you shouldn't be anchoring into anything with them, whipping onto them, and strongly consider the risks of weighting them at all if you are pumped.

Be safe out there.

KP



Kolin Powick (KP) is a Mechanical Engineer hailing from Calgary, Canada. He has nearly 20 years of experience in the engineering field and has been Black Diamond's Director of Global Quality since 2002. Kolin oversees the testing of all of Black Diamond's gear from the prototype phase through continual final production random sample testing.

Scottish Mixed and Black Diamond gear?

Dave McLeod and Andy Turner repeated the Smith- Marshall routes from that famous week in 1960 this year. More of Andy on the first ascent of "The Secret". Same climb Ueli flashes in the Petzl video and one of the most difficult modern Scottish test pieces. A little love for the Black Diamond fans in there as well :) There are 4 of the Smith-Marshall routes on videos by Hot Aches Productions @ you-tube with a full length feature coming in the fall. Observatory Buttress, The Great Chimney, Minus 3 and Pigott's are all on you-tube. Worth a look if you want to see what the "state of the art" on mixed, a full fifty years ago, in 1960.

The Great Chimney (IV,5) 6th February 1960
Minus Three Gully (IV,5) 7th February 1960
Smith's Route (V,5) 8th February 1960
Observatory Buttress (V,4) 9th February 1960
Point Five Gully (V,5) 10th February 1960
Piggot's Route (V,6) 12th February 1960
Orion Direct (V,5) 13th February 1960

"In one legendary week on Ben Nevis in 1960 Jimmy Marshall and Robin Smith advanced Scottish winter climbing a full ten years. On consecutive days they climbed six first winter ascents, including the mini Alpine-route Orion Face Direct (V, 5), while also making the second ascent of Point Five Gully (V, 5) for good measure. The fact they achieved all this by cutting steps up the snow and ice appears, from the remove of the 21st century, to be almost unbelievable. Marshall’s skill was such that he could lead routes almost faster than some of his talented seconds could follow."


Jimmy Marshall the winter of 2010


http://hotaches.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuobO54od7Y&feature=player_Rew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOX0MfGO4ws&feature=player-Rew


Andy Turner on "The Secret"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LjRLqXfNuo&feature=player-Rew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me2AYufFqKs&feature=player-Rew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5BwTHyMJGs&feature=player-Rew