tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post5058039082847560784..comments2024-03-16T10:11:19.302-07:00Comments on Cold Thistle: 2012 Petzl Nomic and Petzl Ergo comments.Danehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08300760603627210620noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-5131354876495204422011-11-08T15:59:11.587-08:002011-11-08T15:59:11.587-08:00The Petzl Nomic and Ergo both require a loop of ac...The Petzl Nomic and Ergo both require a loop of accessory cord to be cut/knotted and hangling fron the bottom of the tool. You attach your prefered umbilicals to that small loop or use the Blue Ice version that is hitched thrugh the main shaft hole or though the smaller addional loop.<br /><br />With out a locker on the attachemnt biner you are liklely lose a tool eventually. Connect a binner directly to a steel spike and it is almost guaranteed,Danehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08300760603627210620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-32516929582414213022011-11-08T13:10:13.575-08:002011-11-08T13:10:13.575-08:00Thanks Dane,
By the way, which leash are you usi...Thanks Dane, <br /><br />By the way, which leash are you using in the photo up top? I read that the Grivel double spring doesn't fit the Ergos well. If I take them alpine, how should I keep the, attached?Mechanicalchrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-14227963168374096022011-11-08T11:56:02.350-08:002011-11-08T11:56:02.350-08:00I realy like the Ergo for every thing. Hard to go...I realy like the Ergo for every thing. Hard to go wrong with them just get some ICE picks and tune them as I have suggested o nthe blog for water fall ice.Danehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08300760603627210620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-76321663935799216262011-11-08T10:21:13.601-08:002011-11-08T10:21:13.601-08:00Dane,
I started ice climbing late last season an...Dane, <br /><br />I started ice climbing late last season and bought the Petzl Ergos this summer thinking I'd be dry tooling all summer (not really understanding that's not practical for a beginner in New Hampshire in July lol) <br /><br />So as the next season is just around the corner here in New England and I'm a little concerned because I haven't seen anything about the Ergo being used for technical mountaineering.I'm also going to try some peaks in Colorado after a visit to the Ouray Ice Park. <br /><br />My aspirations this winter aren't just waterfall ice but also long alpine routes like Huntington Ravine and Shoe String Gully. <br /><br />Petzl markets the quark as the "do all tool". Is that just a marketing position, and the Ergo can be used for alpinism; or is the Ergo just too aggressive of a curve and unreasonable for snow slopes? <br /><br />Should I sell my unused Ergos and go for a Nomic or Quark? <br /><br />Or am I being over analytical and should stick with the Ergo as I and the sport progresses these tools will grow with me too and become the standard for technical mountaineering? <br /><br />Will I get many miles out of the ergo both on ice and big peaks or should I bail on them for a more all-round tool? <br /><br />I felt a bit better when I saw your pick of coming up what looks like a beak peak with them. Can you do all the angle snow positions? Which leash style would work best? <br /><br />One of the problems is also now I have to buy $100 worth of ice pics because they came with dry tool pics, so I have to make a decision now. <br /><br />I know its a lot but I appreciate any advice Dane =)MechanicalChrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12699344890548401889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-90542833936712814252011-10-17T11:55:31.388-07:002011-10-17T11:55:31.388-07:00No doubt all this should have been caught by the P...No doubt all this should have been caught by the Petzl testers. The serrated blade has added a lot of stress to the pommel in use.Danehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08300760603627210620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-39319432279756828592011-10-17T09:16:53.547-07:002011-10-17T09:16:53.547-07:00First of all I have to underline that I love my No...First of all I have to underline that I love my Nomics.<br /><br />"Yes, Petzl uses that excuse as well... ... ...I hate excuses. "poor technique" for poorly designed gear gear is simply bs."<br /><br />Yes this is exactly what I meant. The "design protocol" seems to have missed the real world scenario of the tools being used "wrong" in the most common way.<br /><br />It is just ridiculous to expect that aluminum (in the original serrated pommels) would withstand the multiplyed force of the fisthit when all this force is execerted to abt. 1mm x 1,5mm contact area! Also bear in mind that the pommel is acting as a 2 cm lever, thus further multiplying the force coming from the pommel when the steel tooth catch the ice.<br /><br />The original smooth plastic pommel acts differently when "fisted" hard against the ice, it glides and slides on the ice reducind the impact force delivered to the internal teeth.<br /><br />Quote from Petzl: "GRIPREST strength was doubled to withstand loads of 300daN." <br />--> which exact area fails after this force? The tooth once again perhapsee?<br /><br />Furthermore, look at Petzls frontpage banner, recall, recall, recall. To me this seems that the designprocess is missing some real world user scenario work.<br /><br />For example: -Hmmm, what will happen if whilst a little panicked I will yank this lever a little harder? Oh great, it will get stuck in the "open" position (GriGri2). LOL!<br /><br />- PyynöAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-4811561754966716652011-10-17T08:28:49.972-07:002011-10-17T08:28:49.972-07:00"Is it just me, but to me it seems obvious th..."Is it just me, but to me it seems obvious that the tooths are getting whacked off because the serrated steel is being beaten to the wall before the pick. In other words, fist before pick. Call it bad technique"<br /><br />Yes, Petzl uses that excuse as well. I might buy it if the pervious version of the Nomic had a similar problem...which it DID NOT. Good design in ice tools will over design for every use. Having the pommel hit the ice is not only common but typical on steep ice. <br /><br />I hate excuses. "poor technique" for poorly designed gear gear is simply bs.Danehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08300760603627210620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-47416165328541848422011-10-17T07:50:05.807-07:002011-10-17T07:50:05.807-07:00Hi Dane,
There seem to be seveal things going on...Hi Dane, <br /><br />There seem to be seveal things going on with these new pommels. First, I like the new, deeper shape, with a smoother curve on the inside (where your hand rests). This is nicely visible in one of the pictures. Especially for folks with big hands and/or bulky gloves, this can only be a good thing. That said, I do not really like the spike. You point out one of my first thoughts, which is that the spike will just reduce the amount of rotation possible with the tool. As for the added stability with each swing, I am skeptical that the new "mini" spike can make that much difference, but then again, I have not tried the tools. Also, when I feel like I need a spike for plunging or balance, I just flip my Nomic upside down and plunge the head (at which point the old smooth pommel makes a nice hand rest. Then there is the problems with the breaking teeth in the pommel, the loose fit, and so on. It seems like this version two of the new tool is a quick and awkward solution, and that is really dissapointing. Finally, there is the whole issue of a full strength attachment point for an umbilical, without using knotted cord, but that is a whole other story.... Can we have it all? Good rotation, functional spike, full strength umbilical attachment, all in a lightweight package, so that the tool has a nice swing? Not yet, in my opinion, although it seems like it could be done with current technology, so it is frustrating. But in the end I guess that is part of what makes it fun; the slow evolution of the gear.Bruno Schullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17545888600815223472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-84810963243496453302011-10-16T23:48:21.349-07:002011-10-16T23:48:21.349-07:00"It is not like I am making this stuff up! W..."It is not like I am making this stuff up! What happened to the "old days" when a broken grip rest was the rare and only issue with a Nomic?<br />"<br /><br />Is it just me, but to me it seems obvious that the tooths are getting whacked off because the serrated steel is being beaten to the wall before the pick. In other words, fist before pick. Call it bad technique or tiredness, but this can be easily deducted from the missing tooth. Was the pommel in medium setting, is the S-M tooth missing...<br />And therefor pointing the origin of the problem to the drawingboard insted of the material. <br />- PyynoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-10507606683855487422011-10-16T18:12:51.574-07:002011-10-16T18:12:51.574-07:00You're welcome. 300daN = 675lbs.You're welcome. 300daN = 675lbs.Danehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08300760603627210620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-26167977166582314462011-10-16T18:00:52.745-07:002011-10-16T18:00:52.745-07:00Thanks for your amazingly detailed info. Any idea...Thanks for your amazingly detailed info. Any idea how strong 300 daN is?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-43769033343928358522011-10-16T09:16:16.113-07:002011-10-16T09:16:16.113-07:00Curtain Call, on the Icefield's Parkway, Bruno...Curtain Call, on the Icefield's Parkway, Bruno. Stellar feature. The links are much appreciated, thank you!Danehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08300760603627210620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-35200872231721311022011-10-16T04:11:50.290-07:002011-10-16T04:11:50.290-07:00Hi Dane,
What's that great piece of ice in t...Hi Dane, <br /><br />What's that great piece of ice in the picture on your latest post? Looks great!<br /><br />Posted a link to the shell test recently on UKClimbing. <br /><br />Hope it helps keep the numbers up, and the great reviews rolling. <br /><br />All the best from Switzerland, <br /><br />BrunoBruno Schullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17545888600815223472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6940163880772720830.post-66243718139347146272011-10-15T23:55:02.722-07:002011-10-15T23:55:02.722-07:00I got a good laugh out of a recent email in refere...I got a good laugh out of a recent email in reference to this blog post.<br /><br />"I read your last blog post and I noticed you said you no longer use your little finger and ring finger when you get tired. It sounds as if you don't swing with the wrist at all when you are tired. You do realize (according to Will Gadd) that those are the two fingers most responsible for getting good swings and sticks into the ice? I don't see how the fusions don't swing as well or the cobras as the Nomics based on how you get tired. Sounds as if it is a technique issue guiding your choice in gear here. Which is all fine as I am criticizing your technique.<br /><br />Here is a video by Will Gadd speaking about the grip:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChNVI4eZ_k4&feature=player_embedded"<br /><br />Dane then said:<br /><br />I'll answer..."it is all about rotation". If you understand that you'll understand what it takes to get a stick with any tool using the least amount of energy. The original Nomic rotates easier that the Fusion or even the current version of the Nomic.<br /><br />If you want to extend your rotation *and your tools will allow it* (most won't easily) try swinging with just your index and middle fingers which are also the strongest. <br /><br />You swing a straight shafted framing hammer with your ring and little finger to be efficient. Modern ice tools offer several options on how you might hold and swing the shaft for the most efficient climbing. On my Ergos I use 5 different hand positions on a regular basis. With 5 slightly different swings depending on where my hand is located. Transitions from grip to grip are mindless as well as seamless. <br /><br />Not that I want to hang off my fingers mind you. I'll use my entire hand for that. But I don't use that two or three finger "technique" when I need to hang off my hands/arms either. <br /><br />Almost any current (or past) ice tool will climb steep ice. Some just make it easier than others. I find the more options for position that your tools allow and the more flexible your technique the more efficent you'll climb on ice.Danehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08300760603627210620noreply@blogger.com